8 Years of Smartfix, Building a Business With Your Brother | Fin from Smartfix

Cold Open

Finn: So, I was like, pop the bonnet latch and got to have a look underneath, and then just boom, engine's on fire. I was like, "Oh, crap."

Kane: Okay, what on earth is going on back in Perth? There's part of me going, "No, I don't want to do that."

Meet Finn: 8 Years Running Installations at Smartfix

Kane: Hey, I'm Kane Taylor Smith, the founder and CEO of Smart Fix and High Potential. This is Unlocking Business where we have real conversations around business, leadership, mindset, and personal growth. If you've been getting value from these conversations, please take a second to like, subscribe, and follow our channels. It helps us reach more people, bring on more guests, and share more stories. Now, let's get into this episode.

Today, I'm joined by my brother Finn, who's been a part of the Smart Fix journey for over 8 years. Hey, y'all.

Finn: Good. Yeah, good. It's been a fun day so far.

Kane: What do you actually do at Smart Fix?

Finn: That's a good question. Over the years, the roles have changed quite a lot, but today I am the head of installations — run all the field staff on the road. Got a small team of girls in the office that work alongside myself that take off a lot of the administrative strains, but yeah, deal with all the guys on the road, all the installers that are doing the hard yards.

The Early Days: Ambition, Naivety, and Not Knowing What It Would Become

Kane: I'm going to talk about the early days cuz that's when all the good stories are from. What was the best part of the early days in your opinion?

Finn: I think the best parts of the early days were the ambition — the just the younger versions of us, you know, thinking we can play video games all day and run a business. But that was obviously a short-lived reality. You have this mindset of what I thought it was going to be — I thought it was just going to be yourself, myself, you know, quote, install, do all that. Again, I'd come from working at a new build company, and that was pretty much it — you get a job, go to a job. And I took that mindset into working with you when you took me on board. And I never thought it would be where it is today. I just assumed, yeah, we go do a job, finish the job, get payment, happy days. So it's just one of those things, not quite what I thought it would turn out to be.

Kane: That's the other question I was going to ask — did you ever think it was going to be what it is today?

Finn: No, I didn't. No, 100%, that was the thing. Tying into that last one, it was just one of those things — what was your goal at the end of the day, and what I had envisioned it to be, like again for me it was just a job. I didn't know anything different. I'd just come fresh from — I'd just finished, or was just about to finish, my apprenticeship. So yeah, I was a sparky apprentice, like, cool, just going to finish my trade, get my license. Obviously at some point I'd obviously thought about having my own business, and then Smart Fix just kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger, and here we are today.

Kane: Mhm. So when you started with me, was it your fourth year, hey?

Finn: Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was the tail end of my apprenticeship, for sure. So it would have been — I'd just turned 20, I think. About 20 years old, fourth year apprentice, and then pretty quickly I was see-qualified.

Kane: I mean, from memory it was about six months in when I started the business.

Finn: Yeah, something like that, I can't remember the exact dates, obviously that's all eight years ago now.

Kane: That's a long time ago.

Finn: I'm pretty sure it was about six months in to where I started, which would have been like mid-2018.

Kane: Yeah, sounds about right. Even then, to think — the conversation I had, I remember I was going to the MBA and we were talking about the van, and I was like, "Oh, do you want a job?"

Finn: I was like, yeah, I was just like, oh, yeah, yeah, didn't really hesitate much back then. I was just like, yeah, let's do it, let's give it a crack, see what happens.

The $1,000 Van That Caught Fire on the Freeway

Kane: It's funny actually I'm talking about the van.

Finn: Oh god, that thing. Tell us about your first van at Smart Fix.

Kane: First van at Smartfix — what a car that was. Yeah, obviously us being car guys at heart really — that bomb of a van popped up on Marketplace or Gumtree or whatever it was back in the time, and it's this old old TownAce. Obviously, I'd come — my last job I had a TownAce as well, in very, very similar condition. Pretty bad. But yeah, I just remember, I think it was — what did we have it for, 2, 3 days? Can't even remember, feels like less than a week we had it, and I remember getting on the on-ramp heading south on Burns Beach — Burns Beach on-ramp anyway — going up the hill, and it's not accelerating. So, I downshifted, and it's still not accelerating. I'm like, "Oh no, this can't be good." Again, I'm like 19, 20, I don't really know much about cars at the time. And then, yeah, I see smoke coming out the bonnet. I just thought maybe the car had overheated. So, I was like, pop the bonnet latch and go and have a look underneath, and then just boom, engine's on fire. I was like, "Oh crap." [laughter] I didn't know what to do. Then I'm looking for a fire extinguisher in the car — I think it had no — the gauge was empty, and I was like, oh no. So, I'm there with a big 2 L jug of water, pouring it over the engine bay.

Finn: That's what you get when you buy a van for $1,000 from a car park in Fremantle with tie-dye as the ceiling.

Kane: Oh god, it was the rust around all the window frames — I think every —

Finn: And you sprayed it.

Kane: Yeah, like once a week when I'd see a bad spot pop up, I'd get my wire brush and take off some of the rust, and then we had some white zinc spray or something — I think we bought the wrong cans instead of the proper galvanized stuff. So, I'm pretty sure I just about resprayed that whole van before we got rid of it. I should have kept it today.

Finn: It'd be cool to have that van.

Kane: It's funny — cut it in half and hang it on a wall.

Finn: Yeah. [laughter] Where it all began.

Kane: It's probably scrapped somewhere.

Finn: It's funny you say that, cuz in one of your last podcasts it flashed up, and I've seen the rego — it's still registered and supposed to —

Kane: Really?

Finn: Yeah. I was absolutely gobsmacked — just for a laugh, I put in the rego, WA or whatever it is, and I think it's still got like 8 months of rego on it. I was like, there's no way that thing's still on the road. That thing was a bomb.

Kane: I have to find it.

Finn: Yeah, literally.

Working With Family: Understanding Different Goals and Ways of Thinking

Kane: What were some of the hardest parts at the start of Smart Fix in particular, like the actual business itself?

Finn: So, I think one of the things is understanding your goals. I had this mindset of, I want to be the big dog. But I think early boundaries was good — understanding, like, I'm an employee, you're my boss, and I think early days of having that is probably where it helped to go, "Okay, cool, you are my boss." So it's a big thing about — like never work with family, da da da, and obviously looking back, there's —

Kane: Oh yeah, like yeah, 100%, working with family has definitely had challenges over the time. One of the things is understanding your goal — I want to work towards the same thing, but we have different minds, so although the goal was the same, our journey to get there was different. And there's times where I'd get frustrated at you, cuz I'd see something and set in my ways on how this idea or concept would work, and how you would approach it — I'll see you're a bit more fast, reactive, and obviously I've always said in the past, like, I'm a bit more skeptical and think about the what-ifs. So, at the end of the day, we had the same goal in mind, but we have different ways of getting there, and obviously we would clash over that — or at least I clashed with you. But I think what came with that was a lot of growth, as now a man kind of thing. Back then, I was like a teenager when I came in, so again, it was hard to really grasp what it was you were trying to achieve, and my own wants and goals as well. And over the years, it's kind of come down to — Smart Fix is now my career choice. A lot of people go, it's a job — for me it's more of a lifestyle choice you make, and I wouldn't change anything, to be honest.

Finn: It's worth you mentioning, like, goals — what did you think our goals were at that early stage?

Kane: There's a lot of ways to look at it — being the best trade, being the biggest business, all the big, big, big, you know, and we definitely got there at one point. Obviously, you want to be the biggest and best business in the industry, especially in the country or in the state, and be recognized nationwide kind of thing. So there was part of me that goes — yeah, I wanted that, I wanted it to be the best business in the industry, and I think early days, you and I doing the jobs on the road, we both had the same finished product for a customer, wanting the best possible job, the best possible outcome for the best possible price. So, we still carry those goals today, but obviously on a different scale, having all the staff that we've got that contribute towards that.

From Sparky to the Office: Finn's Career Progression

Kane: What do you think were some of the best learning experiences at the start?

Finn: There's a lot. There's a plethora of lessons learned over the years, coming again from having the mindset of when I'd first started here of just being a sparky — that was the goal, I was just going to be a sparky, and I was going to be a good one. And then, as you grew and kind of showed me some of the behind the scenes and how business actually works, that's when my mindset had shifted — oh, I can be a contributor to this business, how can I help kind of thing. And that's when my work ethic had switched gears, gone from I want to be the best installer, to I want to be in the office, I want to take that next jump. There's obviously steps before we got to where I am today, but from customer service and sales and managing people, office staff, field staff, sales staff — the list is huge. So, the lessons are pretty large, again just from when it was yourself and I to where it is today, the list is pretty huge.

Kane: So, you mentioned there about going into the office. From memory, when was that first office we got on Caloundra?

Finn: Yeah, that was pretty quick.

Kane: Was that in our second year?

Finn: I don't remember, was it? Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was — we'd gone from what was it, having the TownAce to the utes, and then we had the few that were parked out your old joint, and then we had three utes at the house.

Kane: Yeah, and then it would have been close to — four to six staff when we got that first office, and then we had the little office upstairs.

Finn: Yeah, I was going to say, it wasn't long before you were in the office with me upstairs.

Kane: Yeah, it was pretty quick. I'm in front of the window.

Finn: Yeah, got all the sunlight.

Kane: Yeah, got all the sunlight. The summers were savage — like 45° bouncing off the window and you just got your back there, I remember going home with tan lines on my neck, burned on my neck.

Finn: So, yeah, and then you had the air con down the other end.

Kane: Yeah, so you're in the cool side, corner with the air con on, and then you turn it off — I'm like looking at you down the aisle, I'm like, you better turn that back on.

Why Different Perspectives on the Leadership Team Matter

Kane: You had a good point before, you mentioned about how we're different in different aspects, and this has come up before in conversations on the podcast, where to me that's always been super important, cuz obviously me, you, Josh, and Cassie, we're all so different, and we're like the leadership team for the company. And I've said this before, like for me that's important because now with what I've learned, you do need other people to actually hold — hold on a sec, make that decision, let's go through this process.

Finn: 100%, that is one of the things that even for me I've learned, cuz again, it was just yourself and I for a while running the show, and again, I had a certain way of how my brain would work versus how your brain would work. But now again, I come with growth, and as we've gotten a bit older, obviously our patience has grown again through business and dealing with hundreds and thousands of people over the years. But having the other — what we now call the core pillars of business, which is those people — understanding that a different perspective can also open up other opportunities. And yeah, I think you'd probably agree, having the other guys that help us now in the office, they've also got their own opinions and ideas and how they think things work, which also helps us grab onto certain things.

Kane: That's a good point, because it could even be like a generational thing — like obviously we're not old, but getting older, so bringing up new people, they might have a better idea on, like, where Instagram works. [laughter] A new Apple technology, and we're like — I've never really used social media myself.

Finn: Yeah. And obviously we have a team now that can help us do that. But yeah, I couldn't agree more — there's different people with different experiences, different walks of life that now work at Smart Fix. Even just when we have work functions and you get stuck chatting to that one person, you learn something new — you go, "Oh man, you've got a trait that could be really useful, you could do X, Y, and Z with this knowledge or that trait that you have that someone else might not have," and it happens almost daily — speaking to the next person and the next person. There's so many people here that have different walks of life and different understandings of how things work, which is so good of having that environment of people where everyone's pretty keen to give something a crack here too.

Kane: Yeah, and that's what I bring you to, which we were at yesterday — networking with wholesalers and other businesses, just to learn things and share ideas, because as we've grown, we have noticed other people do actually like sharing. So that's obviously what for High Potential we're trying to do — going out, meeting people. For example, we had an online workshop and Q&A the other day, and there's people quite early on in business that were telling us how they do certain things. I'm like, bring me back to those days where we would do similar, and I'm like, okay, maybe we actually need to rethink how we do this. So, I'll go and look into Smart Fix and adjust things to suit, cuz I haven't thought of it for so long because I'm doing different things now. So, it's good to have these conversations and see what's on the ground.

Finn: An outside perspective.

Kane: Yeah. Or even like I've been going on the road doing those quote days — for me, I love doing that cuz I pick up things, and then I get to speak to the quoters and see what they do in those situations, and try make it easier for other people. Like, let's actually implement this change — like, you put a thing in the chat yesterday just about the job information — cool, can we add the compliance things in there, there's another thing which I want to change, well it's got type and then description, but when I was on my riser, it's like the same thing, can we just combine. There's those little tiny 1%ers — for me, that would be so much easier.

Finn: Makes a huge difference. Again, it's an efficiency thing, and for us, one of the things that's been a big part of my job is — there's only been so many people that can do what I do and have the patience with people to go, right — we look back at early day ServiceM8 and how we used to use that, and it was just a mess, we didn't know any better, we just thought this is how it worked. And I look back on things that people suggest now on how to make things better, I go, "No, we've been there, done that." We've been through 100 variations, and those 1% changes that we've made now, it is game-changing — again, it's all, if you make someone else's job easier, they're going to want to do it more, do you know what I mean? So, the guys on the road, the less they've got to interact with a certain thing, like putting in a work order — we had it crazy over-complicated back in the day, think of the hundreds of questions we had, it was like, yeah, sign and fill one out, to what we have now — okay, cool, this is just the core information that's required, so the office staff who aren't trades people can understand what it is you're talking about, and then we can pass it on to a customer when they ask those questions. Um but yeah, those 1% changes, like putting in the compliance specifications, "Oh, what's that?" And then when it gets passed to the office, if it's not myself looking at it, and somebody else in a different trade, they can go, "Okay, cool, I understand that." Fortunately, plumbing and electrical's compliance kind of has similar aspects of it, I guess.

Standard Operating Procedures and Building Systems That Don't Rely on One Person

Kane: Yeah, that comes down to systems, and that's what we've been working on for a lot of the last couple of years — standard operating procedures. We're about to start doing the Loom videos of, this is what we actually do, if someone goes away for like 2 weeks, cool, pass that information to the next person, they can cover their role as best as possible.

Finn: Yeah, and that was the thing — I feel like we had a lot of roles that were reliant on a certain type of person, and that's been one of the things I feel like, over the last couple of years, we've kind of refined certain processes to just work for people, not a specific person — not saying that that one person has invented themself.

Kane: Yeah, 100%, that's the thing — when you get new staff come through, and you have that one person that can only show them how to do that one thing, that's a crack in the system, do you know what I mean? Cuz what if that person's off sick or on leave or no longer at the company — cuz it has happened, that we've created these systems and somebody else has had all the reins, and it's been like a game of Chinese whispers of how yourself or myself or the combined management have wanted it to be done, and then when it actually gets played out, you go, that's not even close to how we originally envisioned it.

Finn: Yeah, that Chinese whispers — you show us how to do this, then you pass it to the next person, and then the breakdown begins from there.

Fixing Bad Communication With Microsoft Teams Channels

Kane: So that sort of makes me think of bad communication. This is something that we're always able to bring up on every toolbox meeting, similar to what you just said — if someone does make a change, you've got to tell everyone, or it's got to be put in those chats, and that's where obviously now for us it's great, cuz we use Microsoft Teams, and we've got all the channels and chats set up for the operations, the leadership, the management, the electrical installers. So we have all these things in place so we can, if we do make a change, obviously I'll make some changes and I'm like, I probably should have told someone, but now it's like I can put it in the chat, do a screenshot, "I have just done this," and everyone's aware.

Finn: Oh, there's many a time where I leave work one day and come back another day and something's completely changed, and I go, "What the hell's going on here?" Then I go knock on Kane's door and say, "Have you touched this?" And he goes, "Yeah, yeah, I deleted that." And you go, "Oh, you're kidding." I remember the forms —

Kane: Can you say what it is, spreadsheet? Is it spreadsheet?

Finn: Oh, yeah, the spreadsheets back in the day, an over-complicated system for something so simple, but yeah, that's how the core of a lot of the —

Kane: Value —

Finn: Yeah, understanding value, tracking where particular jobs were, and we had the team dynamics, like who can do what on there. And then coming to work when I'm like, I swear this was in this folder, or it was wherever it was, and I'm like, "What the hell's going on," and you go into Kane's office, he's got this big cheesy Grinch grin, "Yeah, I deleted that," and you go, "Oh, you're kidding me." I think one of them was — I had a folder that had all previous forms in there, and I was looking for it cuz I think we were going to bring back a form or something, and again, looking for that file that was long gone.

Kane: But I look back to those days now and I go, thank god they were deleted, do you know what I mean? It's helped us re-evaluate that system anyway. I know now we have archive files for that reason, so I can just put it in there and then it's there for the future, because I think those original ideas and things are great to look at.

Finn: Yeah, again, looking back, I looked — on one of our desks there's the old brochures.

Kane: Oh yeah.

Finn: With the checklists.

Kane: So I go and look at them, and I'm like, that was actually a great idea, but there's obviously reasons why we stopped doing it. I wonder if we can re-implement that idea differently so that it would work better. So I do think having the original stuff — and we just spoke about having photos, like, we're just devastated, imagine if we had all the photos of the old days, our old uniform.

Finn: Yeah, we did have some, we lost them, but I've actually still got my day one shirt, it's in my wardrobe, it's framed — I probably should frame it, but it's pretty faded and the logo's just about worn off. It was the old JB's shirts, it was the cotton material that just had "smartfix" and then my name on it.

Kane: Uh yeah.

Finn: I think it was the first bunch of shirts we got, you could wear them for about half a day and then you'd have to change it cuz it was absolutely stink, cuz it's a 100% cotton shirt.

Kane: I'd have worse than going through a roof space in 45° heat in a cotton shirt.

Was There Ever a Moment Finn Thought Smartfix Might Not Survive?

Kane: Was there ever a moment where you thought the business might not work?

Finn: Um yeah, 100% there was — I look back to, again, I think you've spoken about it, the things that happened last year, making crazy business decisions and losing tons of money. That was one of the more recent times where — oh, I might come back from my holiday to not have a job. But again, I spoke to our peers about it and they'll go, "What's going to happen?" You go, "Nothing. Smart Fix is too big of a beast to kill." We've been through literally everything — we've gone through COVID, economic crises, monster company, money lost, blah blah blah. The list goes on and still here, still knocking, still chipping away.

Kane: What do you think the biggest problem was, when we obviously — when I say peaked, we peaked in value and stuff, and then obviously it hit the fan.

Finn: What did it feel like through that time for you? Boots on the ground in the office.

Kane: Boots on the ground in the office during those times, there's a lot of stress that I try not to expose anyone to, cuz again, as a manager, being that top end person, the people on the road, the people in the office answering the phones, they've got a job and they want that job, and it's hard to look at them and put a big smile on and give them a big thumbs up when the building behind me is literally on fire kind of thing. So, it's pretty hard and quite stressful. Again, being that bit younger when those things were happening, not quite understanding how to react was a challenge in itself. But yeah, we've had some challenging times, but I feel like every business — you wouldn't be a business if you didn't kind of go through those things.

What's Changed for the Better Since Early 2025

Finn: What do you think has changed for the better since early 2025?

Kane: We're a lot more understanding and forgiving, I think. That's the one thing — back then it was like, this is happening and nothing's stopping it, to now, even just after 12 months — I feel like everyone has kind of gone, "Whoa, that was pretty scary," to "Okay, but if we try this, this might work," and that's where I feel like a lot of ideas and concepts are more available, shared.

Finn: Yeah, they're more shared — I feel like we're a bit more of a committee kind of thing now, whereas before it was just, this is how it's going to go, and now it's more like, "What do you guys think about this?" And even amongst us, cuz obviously as you say, you kind of not stepped away, but you're doing bigger and better things and whatnot, leaving the reins to the other people in the office now, the other managers, to keep the business flowing smoothly, and we will talk amongst each other and come up with an idea, and it'll go around before we come to you for a final sign-off on a change kind of thing. So instead of you doing all the thinking for us, we just need to bring it to you and go, "Do you like this idea now?" kind of thing. So I think that's helped a lot, definitely helped with team building, and the environment we work in — a lot more people are kind of like, "Oh yeah, my words mean something now."

Kane: Mhm. Then it goes back to the point you mentioned just before, that having the younger staff that come through — like the coordinators now for example, they've started with us as that customer service, receptionist kind of role on the phones, and sort of progressed with us as we grew. Obviously had their roles changed as we were peak size, and then obviously we had to change it, so for them it was like a bit of a step back cuz they had to go back into a role for a short time, and now we're able to rebuild the business in a different way, and now they're even in a better position than what they were, so they sort of stuck with us through the hard times, and now they're in a position where they have a very good career path opportunity.

Finn: Yeah, 100%, I think for those people in those positions, they might have gone, "That's a stab in the back kind of thing," but I think what's helped is, being honest to them, and that's what's kept them loyal, I guess. They've gone, "I spoke to Kane, the CEO, the big dog of the company, and he's told me what's happening and why," or even myself, obviously people respect me, so they'll go, "Finn has said this," and being honest with those people, saying, "Hey, look, there's some change happening, it might not be the best, but give it some time and things will improve." And they do, they always do. And I think that's a problem, a lot of mistakes people make is they just think, "Oh, it's just going to be bad forever now," they don't give it time.

Kane: They drown in their sorrow, kind of.

Finn: Yeah, pretty much — they go, "Oh, this is the worst thing ever," but there's always a bigger and better thing around the corner, you just got to sit tight.

Weekly Transparency Updates and Killing Workplace Rumors

Kane: I think that comes back to that communication, and again, me having people around me, cuz I'm not the best person to console people in a way, so that's where we've got Cassie and Kaylee, they're better at that especially with their team. So I think having open communication — that was a thing I learned through that period, is I still do it now — weekly, every Monday I put a post in the company chat with some updates, from me — "Okay, this is what happened last week, these are some slight changes." But I learned that back then, when the culture got a bit "how you going" for a while, with what is going on. Once I learned that, I just tell people, "Hey, this is what's happened, we have just lost a lot of money, we are restructuring the company, just come and chat to us if you do have any concerns" — which again is hard, cuz people don't do that, but that's where they have their managers and their friends in the business that they can go to and ask those questions. Or there'll be people on the road that I am closer with, and they'll come to me, I'll tell them what's happening, then they can go and spread the information instead of rumors — cuz that was the thing I wanted to avoid, was like false rumors, like you hear from other business owners, "Hey, is Smartfix gone into liquidation, they're closing?" Then I hear that from one of my guys on the road, I'm like, "No." I need to start telling people everything, and I still do it to this day, and I think that's super important.

Finn: I couldn't agree more. Even for me, although being a brother, there's definitely information that I'd miss out on, so people would come to me and I'd have to clarify, or I personally don't know, or unfortunately there's times where people come and go, "Am I going to lose my job?" and I go, "No, you're not going to lose your job," but I don't know.

Kane: But if you say it without confidence, they might read that off you, like, if he doesn't know —

Finn: Yeah, so I think that's where, again, they always say honesty is the best policy, and I feel like we've definitely come a long way from day one to eight years down the track. Not that we've beaten around the bush on certain things, but there was just a lack of openness, I guess you could say. But yeah, where we were five years ago to today, it's a different business. And I think we joke in the office between myself and Cassie and whatnot, we all say, "I think we're on version 73 of the business."

Working With Family: Setting Boundaries With a Brother and a Partner

Finn: Working with family, again, definitely had some challenges, but as we've both grown as men today, I feel like you and I both come a long way in our relationship. Obviously, I think if we were in the original building in the same office, I think we'd be like an episode of The Simpsons every day where you're strangling Bart kind of thing. So, working in a different area, obviously I don't see you every day — there'd be probably times where I don't see you for a week kind of thing, but obviously that's a key thing to understand, just understanding each other's goals, and just sort of realizing as well, working with family, it's not just me.

Kane: So, your partner is the office manager, yeah?

Finn: Yeah, Keeley, my partner, she's the office manager, but again, same thing, working in a separate part of the building, our roles don't really intertwine with one another, as such, as, you know, myself and Josh, the sales manager, I deal with him all day, whereas Keeley, we don't really have much to do with each other's jobs in a day, so although we work together, I don't see her pretty much at all throughout the day, apart from warming up lunch or making a coffee kind of thing.

Kane: So, even if you're trying to compare it to me, cuz obviously with my wife, we don't really talk about work as much outside of work, so for you it's actually a full — got to full notice things. How do you separate business from personal life outside of work?

Finn: Yeah, we do joke about this a bit, cuz obviously although we work together, I kind of know what's going on in her day, and obviously she kind of knows what's going on in my day, so we go home and we talk about the things that happened throughout the day, or something that happened on the job, or something that happened in the office in her office particularly, but we try and set a time in the day where we go, "No more shop talk," and if you get stuck talking work all day every day, then you'd go mad.

Kane: Yeah, you'd lose your mind. So, how do you do that then? Is that like a — you get home, do dinner, do all your things — is it a certain tight, literally time of day?

Finn: Yeah, it depends what's happened that day, but for the most part, pretty much from 5:00, that's it, no more.

Kane: Get home, debrief.

Finn: Get home, debrief, yeah. Debrief, and again fortunately Kelly's super chill, so there's not really anything negative to talk about, it's just like the normal things — how's your day, what did you do, who did you see kind of thing, who did you speak to, any funny customers kind of thing. So, we've got a dog now, and we kind of go, right, we'll take the dog for a walk, and that's where we debrief, and when we get home from the walk or the drive, whatever, we go, "All right, that's it, no more, we'll just leave it in the car or leave it on the walk." So that's a thing, a boundary Kelly and I had both agreed on early days, going, yeah, working together, we can't sit there and let work get in the way of our relationship.

The Biggest System Change: Clear Communication Tools for Field Staff

Kane: What are some of the systems in business you think made the biggest changes to Smart Fix?

Finn: Having a clean communication system with the guys — again, it's like, early days it was easier to make those phone calls, easy to have a chat with one of the guys on the phone when we were a team of 10 kind of thing, way easier, way more time in a day. But as we are today, with 35 people on the road kind of thing, or whatever it is today — it's obviously quite a few guys. So, it does get challenging to communicate via phone call every day, cuz it's not just those guys on the road, it's the customers that want to call and speak to you, or a sales rep from another company or whatever it may be. Before you know it, you blink and your day's gone, there's just not enough hours in the day to have a chat with every single person. But, having a clean, clear area to communicate with people via message, cuz a lot of the guys that work for us are in a generation where they're happy to text, so it's easier for them to text or instant message or whatever it may be. So, having an easy function way for them to communicate one-on-one, in a group chat, between departments, definitely helps. So, going back to the whole communication thing, business communication is key, 100%. Having a clean area — we've gone from Facebook Messenger to Microsoft Teams, obviously we floated some other ones back in the day, but that's a big one.

Finn: Obviously for me and what I do in a day, a job management system is a necessity — whipping out your paper calendar or paper diary kind of thing is just a thing of the past, it's too complicated, too confusing, too easy to miss something important or forget a customer, cuz you forgot to write it down. So, we use ServiceM8 — there's obviously heaps of them out there, and there's ones that we would probably benefit from, but again, we're not too far deep, but we've got so accustomed and comfortable and made it work for us now, and it does work, and I'd recommend it to just about anyone starting out — this is the perfect startup piece of software to use. We do complain about it a lot, but I think it's because we used it wrong for so long, and now we're like, actually let's just use it how you're supposed to use it, and then obviously you've got the integration for that reporting software and things like that.

Kane: And also we're pretty close to spending a lot of money changing to a new system for a few minor changes that would have probably cost us like over 50k, and now you look at it, we've already got that for way cheaper, and we know how to use it, so why break something that isn't working. Is there many not-working systems out there?

Finn: I think people do drown in, "Oh my gosh, what do I use, what phone system, what CRM, what AI platform do I use? Just stick to one, don't overcomplicate it." And I think that's the thing, again with having AI available, people will deep dive too much instead of just giving it a go. Even me, I've become pretty reliant on it, but I can imagine people doing their own personal research on what type of software is going to work for their business, they're going to overcomplicate it, they're going to go for the biggest and best thing, and it's not what they actually need to use — they just need something simple to get by for now, to learn, especially if they've never done it.

Why "Just Pick One" Beats Overcomplicating Your Software Stack

Kane: That's actually a good example. So I've done exactly the same thing that I've done before, is with High Potential, we jumped deep into HubSpot because it's got one of the best names — it can do everything, but again you sign into it and you need someone to do an implementation program for you, cuz it is that complex. And then, HighLevel is what we use now, and you look at that and it's extremely — it's probably like a ServiceM8 comparison to, I don't know, Simpro or something — it's just significantly easier, it's cheaper, and I'm not ready to invest like 20k for someone to implement a system for a startup business.

Finn: Yeah, 100%, that's what I mean — yes, we have issues with ServiceM8 at times, and again, it's probably more of a user issue than something wrong with the system. Admittedly, I've had a couple of accounts on ServiceM8 now because my account just would stop working, then you make a new account, it's working perfectly fine. So, we've had those little teething issues, but yeah, again, overcomplicating something that just needs to be simple. Sometimes you just got to take a step back and go, "What do I actually need?" And that's easier said than done, because if you don't have another person to bounce that idea off, especially a new startup company, they just go, "Cool, I'm going to use AI, I'm going to figure out what they recommend, what's the best rated, what are other people saying online," kind of thing, and when they recommend another big CRM or a job management system, people would point you in the wrong direction. That's where ServiceM8's been a godsend, cuz I don't need any of the information that we probably do need, but all I care about is understanding where my jobs are, who's on those jobs, and how long those jobs are for. If it's too complicated for me to use, I'm probably just not going to use it. And yeah, it's probably my own stubbornness of how my brain works on certain things.

Kane: The one question for ServiceM8 who's listening — you need customer reps, you need customer reps, don't just palm us off to a partner. You guys need reps, cuz your business could grow significantly if you just listened to advice from businesses. Not everyone, obviously, but if you get all this information, like, just do this thing — for example, service departments, electrical, plumbing, air con — if you could separate them in ServiceM8, you'd open up your client base significantly.

Our Biggest Hiring Mistakes: Ideas Without a Plan

Kane: I'll tell you about some of the mistakes we made in your opinion for Smart Fix through our fast growth period, more specifically on hiring and recruitment. What would you say were some of our mistakes?

Finn: I guess this is to generalize it — I think we would over-invest on an idea, opposed to investing on a plan. We had this kind of big picture of, "Yeah, we're going to do this and then we're going to do that," but they were ideas, they were concepts, they weren't thought out, planned, and I look back on the past and go, that didn't work, that was a bad idea. Obviously my job is to run the guys on the road, but I see everything, like being your brother, obviously you'll come to me with some information — just having a few ideas, yeah, you love an idea. But I think early days, even with staff, whatever it may be, I think that was the thing, was we had an idea of what it was going to do, and the reality was it wasn't just that. Like, we think of some of the positions we had in the office back in the day in the big building, and we don't even consider that as an option for us anymore — some of the sales positions we had, it sounded so good as an idea, but as a planned out concept, it just didn't work. Unfortunately, I feel like that does come down to a certain type of person you would want to do that job, and when you put that ad up on Seek for that role, we're not 100% sure about what it is we're looking for, and we're just hoping somebody can fill their shoes — and that kind of goes back to an earlier topic of creating a system that's based around a particular type of person. So, that's one of the big things we've changed over the years.

Kane: I was going to say, that's a good point, but also there's definitely been us hiring people and not having the structures in place, and then winging it, leaving them, "Why isn't it working?" We haven't provided the correct training or the standard operating procedure, which, looking back now, it would have been so much easier and would have saved a lot of money if we thought out the process after we hired the person, as opposed to looking for someone and hoping they're going to bring in the process.

Finn: Yeah, I think that was the thing, we had this idea, it was a great idea, we had these cracking ideas over the years, but again it was relying on, "Oh, that person's going to come in and smash it out of the park," and then sometimes it just wasn't that. Obviously, it's a gamble, right? It's a gamble if you're going to take on somebody, and you have this idea in mind of what they're going to be, and then they're just not that, and it happens — that's just business, and that's just the way the world works, it's a gamble, you're gambling with if that person is going to do exactly what you want them to do.

Kane and Finn's Proudest Moment: Saying Yes on Day One

Kane: What are some of your proudest moments looking back? Eight years to choose from.

Finn: I look back today and I do think of when you'd asked me to come on board — there's part of me going, "No, I didn't want to do that kind of thing," cuz again, young naive me going, I don't want to work for you, why would I want you to be my boss — and obviously not selling me the dream or anything like that, but it was just a change in workload, coming from new build construction stuff, and then giving it a crack into maintenance repair. So I definitely look back to day one, I'm glad I said yes, because it's put me in a position today where I've been able to buy the house, I've been able to buy my car, and obviously the wage helps being in the position I am today, opposed to just being that sparky on the road. I've learned so much. So, I just look back to day one, I'm glad I didn't say no. It's definitely a — [I'm proud of that.]

Kane: But straight out to the point that you just said about hiring people not having a plan — what were we doing here?

Finn: Yeah, we — I had no idea.

Kane: Just do it, take the risk. I found a van for a thousand dollars, let's go pick it up now. Glad you said yes, otherwise —

Finn: Pretty sure he did it the next day. I think it was, yeah, I'm pretty sure I remember being at the MBA, pretty sure it was a Sunday or something like that, and it was like, man, Sunday sesh, and then, yeah, we had some food, had a beer, and we were talking, and he offered me the job, and it was like, "Right, we're going to go pick up this van." I want to say it was that afternoon or the next day.

Kane: I'm pretty sure it was the next day. I'm pretty sure when you sort of agreed, I showed you the car — I was like, this is what I'm thinking.

Finn: You get. [laughter]

Kane: I planned that far — if you said yeah, I planned that, the rest of it.

Finn: Yeah, if I hadn't said no, you would have been in a very awkward position with this bright van.

Kane: I guess I'll just do it by myself.

Finn: Yeah, it would have been different, hey, if you said no. I don't know what I would have done.

Kane: I think the same, like where would I be now, if I hadn't said yes to taking that opportunity and that risk, cuz again I didn't know if it was going to work — you just said, hey, I've just started this business, do you want to come work with me? I didn't think of what my first working day was actually going to look like — coming from my last business, I had months of work booked out, I had my own set of responsibilities as an apprentice with my trades people on site kind of thing, and I had that consistency — I've always needed that kind of consistent, knowing what's next. You know me, being a bit skeptical in life.

How Finn Manages the Stress of a Team of 30 Vans Sitting Idle

Kane: How does that affect you now when we only book out like three hours in advance with a team of like 30 vans on the road?

Finn: The heart, throughout the day, is insane — again, this time of the year, in April, statistically a bad month, and it does happen, you've just got cars sitting around, you go, "Man, we are — that's just burning money, I'm literally watching that car at a standstill at a McDonald's or a KFC." And they just — you know, the guys get paid well, so you go, that's like $100 an hour we're losing in wages, then there's the vehicle cost, cuz they've sat there in the air con cuz it's hot or cold, which is fair enough, but it's those times you go, I don't know what to do, what am I supposed to do here, no one's calling, we got like one phone call an hour and it's someone who wants something done 2 weeks ago kind of thing, and you go, what do you do, you can't just send them home every single day, the guys are there to work, and if we can't provide it, it is the age-old question, what do you do in this situation? I feel like we had that situation so many times.

Kane: Or we're in such a good position now, it doesn't happen — I mean, it does happen often I suppose, but we can always find stuff to do.

Finn: Yeah, there's always something. And that's the thing with a lot of innovation —

Kane: Office renovations.

Finn: Yeah, there's always something to do, it's just a matter of, there are times you do just have to think outside the box, and that's where, if every problem has a solution, it's just finding the solution is the hard part sometimes. Yeah, that's it, it's like — oh, the trailers need cleaning, or the vans are trashed, or a car needs picking up, or there's something to move around in the workshop that needs two people, and oh, there's another trade that needs a hand and we've got no one to help.

Kane: We always make it work. I'd love to know how many hours we have actually spent doing office renovations and work — it'd be thousands and thousands of hours.

Finn: I don't [snorts] want to know. I think, you know, I'd seen apprentices moping around the parking lot going, "Oh man, if my old boss saw me do that." But yeah, I'd love to have that number available, going, what's that missed opportunity on income we could have made in those times where there was just nothing to do and we were doing the renos or whatever it was — the hours would be up there, I reckon, cuz it wasn't just, oh, we had a sparky, it was, we've got four sparkies and a painter and a chippy and two ceiling people or whatever it was at the time, just kind of standing around the yard, twiddling their thumbs, looking at us for something to do. That's where we'll just knock out this wall and then chuck another office here, or whatever it is — oh, we're going to put this feature wall up, or paint.

Kane: Yeah, I'd say to paint.

Finn: I think we've had every trade paint something. Yeah, actually.

Turning the Tables

Kane: All right, should we turn the table?

Finn: All right.

Kane: Where do I go?

Finn: I'm a bit bigger than you, so.

Kane: Do I get the iPad?

Finn: Nah, you get to think from your brain. Now, is there anything we haven't spoken about that you want to go through?

Kane: Uh, I guess, asking some of the questions you've asked me is — what were you thinking on day one, like, what made you go — why do you want to start a business, when there's so much pressure and stress and financial loss or whatever it may be, what made you go, "Yeah, I'll give it a go"?

Kane's Original Motivation: "It Looked Easy"

Finn: I think I wouldn't have known that — like the fact of the financial pressure or that kind of stuff, I wouldn't have known anything about that. I wouldn't have researched it back then, with my age, it would have — for me, it looked easy. Like, mom's got heaps of hairdressing clients, they're all going to use me, she's got a few friends in real estate, perfect, I'll do that. That never works — came up the other day chatting with Angelo, and yeah, really the same thing, everyone tries it, it might work for a few weeks, and then they find something else, lose it all straight away. So for me it was — I didn't have a plan, that's why I asked you earlier about the goals, I didn't really have a plan at all, I just wanted to work by myself, had my SS6.

Kane: You had the van, I had the nice SS6 with the white rims.

Finn: As a fan —

Kane: I had the HSV SV6 thing — had all the body kit and the rims, the chrome dishes, and all that. And then, yeah, I had the $900 rust bucket, that town, man, that's it. Yeah, I just enjoyed that, for me it was so fun. And then obviously when you came on board, then the next person, then I was like, "Oh, this is actually fun." I liked doing the office work, the website, and just doing the things I had no idea about, like I always talk about making the branding, doing the logo, the OG red and blue.

Finn: Using paint to do everything.

Kane: So they laugh about that these days now, I still go to paint now, I'll mock up my plan and send it to her, and she's like, "Go on Canva, I'll show you how to use —"

Finn: Nah, paint is —

Kane: Paint is there, it's easy.

Finn: Paint is there, it's easy, yeah, easy for me.

Kane: Make it look pretty. So that's — yeah, it just escalated, hey, I just — it was just fun, I enjoyed the risk.

Finn: Did you ever think you would be where we are today?

Kane: Nah, no way. Nah, I think you obviously get used to it as you scale the business — people have asked recently, "How do you manage the risk?" And I've said, if I said to people now, how much — I won't say the debt we're in — but like loaned money that we're in right now, we're in more, on paper, more debt than anyone that works in the business. But you sort of need to leverage debt to be able to grow business, so, but again, as we grew, I got used to it — call it maybe, it might be a 20k loan, I'll take a 100k loan, okay cool, now it's $2 million in vehicle assets, okay cool, now it's the office buildings, there's the credit cards, the loans. Yeah, you just get used to it, and again because I am confident that it's going to work.

Finn: Yeah, I think that's one of those things, it's an unexplored map, and your future self knows how to read that map, but you just got to be patient with yourself to understand that you aren't going to know everything on day one, but hey, in 8 years time now, and you look at where you are and where the business is, you've obviously explored that map, you know where the bridge is not to cross kind of thing now.

Kane: Yeah, I'll go back to, there's a lot of unteachable lessons — like, dad would have told me, or the accountant would have said to me, that's mental, how you're spending 30% of your revenue just on Google Ads, that's insane, yeah, but I need to. And now I know that's insane and it doesn't work long-term, so now it's like, okay, well what else do we do, okay cool, that's what we have to either restructure the business, or do the outbound phone calls for servicing, do a lot more on social media. So that's always been hard, and a lot of things people said to me now, I'm like, yeah, makes sense, but if I didn't do it for myself, there's no way I would have listened.

Finn: Yeah, and there's no way I would have learned the hard way.

Kane: Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more.

Looking Back on the $30 Million Revenue Year and the Hidden Costs Behind It

Finn: I don't know if — I guess looking back on when the business was at its, I guess some might say, its peak, I say its downfall, when we had the 150 people, $30 million revenue — what were your thoughts at that time when it was like, "Oh my god, these numbers are huge," but then looking at the actual behind the scenes and seeing again the building behind you on fire and the money burning, what were your thoughts at that time?

Kane: The building behind — online for sale. [laughter] Yeah, it was definitely — you look back at it now, and it's definitely the best learning curve ever. I think I never really looked at, or understood, the numbers anywhere near enough. So, the revenue, the staff count, for me I was like, "Oh, this is hectic," I was like, "Oh my god, you got that many staff, you got that many vehicles, oh my god," like everyone says that. And obviously for me I was like, yeah, it's pretty big business, but then I didn't really understand the numbers, so yeah, the revenue was going up, but then there was no profit, and we used to look back at the numbers like, "This is the new break-even now," I was like, "Uh, okay, how? No, that's not happening. No, we need to push the quotes harder, let's push more money into Google to get enough leads to keep the guys busy, 10, 12 quotes a day, let's go, it will work, we need 16% conversion rate, 1,100 net per job, that's what we need to do." But then you're back like, well, that wasn't realistic — the cost per lead from Google ended up doubling what it should be, because we're overpaying just to try and get the quantity in, then the guys have 12 quotes in their names, now they're rushing, their conversion rate drops off, the average per job value drops off, then we need more people in the office to answer the calls. So then you look back and you're like, "That's insane, we could have —" you know, but it's like an intellectual lesson, to some degree, but now it's like, okay, cool, you do need to advertise on different platforms, you can't just have all your eggs in one basket because then you're stuck. And now we're 9 years deep, and okay, cool, we've only just started SEO. So all our eggs were in one basket, and now we're trying to do these other things — obviously we got the data from the letterbox flyers, and it's one of the best return-on-investment things we've ever done, again, that took us like 2 years to actually look at the data. So, now it's, let's look at the data, look at the numbers, and make slower decisions.

Finn: Yeah, it was obviously risky at that time.

Kane: Yeah, and I can mention before that we had four offices at the time — had to sell two very fast to pay bills, obviously. One of our mates bought one pretty quickly, which was great, and we sold the big one to an investor, and yeah, we almost lost everything, it was pretty close.

Finn: Yeah, that's, going back to what I said before, that was definitely one of the times when I'm away living my best life in Santorini or wherever I was at the time, and then I'm getting messages, and I'm like, I'll just quickly check Teams, and I'm very quick to put Teams back on the back burner and turn notifications off, and wait till I get back and go, "What on earth is going on back in Perth?"

Kane: Yeah, yeah, I do look back on those days going, it seemed to be, whatever, someone would go away, every time someone would go away, it's like something's malfunctioning. And you got back the other day, and I called you and I was like, "Have you heard?" And you're like —

Finn: I was like, "You've got to be kidding me."

Kane: I was like, "Bro, nothing's happened this time."

Finn: I was actually — I got promise. It was true, I came back and nothing had happened, I was like, but something's not right, every time I go away lately, there's a catastrophic malfunction on something.

Kane: Yeah, why? Can't be a coincidence, hey? And when you say everyone, it's like, let's get the leadership team — someone from the leadership team goes away, they come back, something changes.

Finn: I don't know why.

Kane: I think that might be early days, you being very reactive.

Finn: Probably, probably. That's definitely one of the traits that's come a long way, and long been —

Kane: A lot more thought out, I guess.

What Excites Kane About Smartfix's Future

Finn: What excites you about the future of Smart Fix now?

Kane: Definitely the sustainability, the consistency, the calmness — it was like for a while it was being on choppy waters, weren't sure quite how to stand on that boat.

Finn: So, how long was that while for?

Kane: A while. But, I think it all kind of starts to settle after what happened last year, and I look at what I do with today now — the job was very demanding, it was very stressful, a lot of after-hours time that went into it.

Finn: All of that, after-hours call outs, weekend work, closing jobs.

Kane: Just like — colleagues, 24/7. Yeah, there would be weeks where you'd be closing on an 80-hour work week, and you go, is this worth it, I could go work another job, work half the time, and probably get paid some money, but the reality is, it's not like that forever, and you do just need to ride out the tough times, and again, the grass is always going to be greener on the other side of whatever's happening right now. So, what I'm looking forward to most is just being more sustainable in the business, not working monster hours, and just slowing things down a bit to make things bigger and better. And we've seen that already, with profit margins, and the stats and staff retention, staff happiness, etc — things are just generally a bit better. Well, not a bit better, a lot better than what they once were, obviously, but I think, just a happier team is a better team, our quality of work — we're not getting as many callbacks, we're getting a lot less customer complaints.

Finn: Where it's easier to monitor and manage the quantity of staff.

Kane: Yeah, there's so many things that I'm looking forward to and they're already in place as of right now, it's just slowed down a bit, and I can enjoy a weekend and whatnot. But not saying I never enjoyed it — I love the battles that we had, I love the hard hours. I never really feared it — again, I'm here 8 years later, I've seen it all, I've been there from the beginning kind of thing, so it's nothing that I'm not ready or prepared for.

Why Working With Family Made the Hard Times Easier to Bear

Finn: I think that's one of the good things of working with family — for the stressful times for you, it would personally affect me on a degree, cuz I think that's a tough time for you, I can only imagine what your family are experiencing, your wife and kids at home — that's why I want to put in that extra yard, cuz it's not just you, it's not just my boss, it's my niece and nephew kind of thing that are out on the tail end of those things, and then all the staff in the business.

Kane: Oh, yeah.

Finn: All the relationships I've developed, and obviously my own partner working here — again, it was one of those things that I'm going to do what I can to make things better and help improve things, or whatever it is. I think that's again going back to working with family — I do think having a family member you can trust in business, building those relationships early, setting boundaries as well — I made it clear to you, I want to be your employee, I want you to be my boss kind of thing, I don't want it to be, "he's my brother" and it just gets thrown out the window, cuz there's definitely times where I think people just think I'm in this position cuz I'm related to you, and it's like, well, there's been 8 years of pretty tough and challenging times, where I have proved a point that I can do a job, and I can do a pretty good job. So, I do think that's one of the challenges I personally face being the brother of the business — they just think I'm here cuz I'm related to you, but the reality is, no, I've worked pretty hard, I've worked up through the ranks of being the apprentice, being the electrical installer, the qualified sparky, then into sales and answering phones, pretty much every step and stage in between, from being the apprentice to being top-end management, being head of installations today, running not just sparkies, managing plumbers and ceiling fixers and painters and every other trade that we've had.

Kane: Yeah, obviously there's a lot of learning, and that's what's really good, cuz it's not just, ah, dealing with sparkies, there's something new happening every day, or a different job, different projects.

Finn: Yeah, it's a good point, cuz [clears throat] obviously we have done this before — hired for a higher up role, and again we've done this at the previous company as well — you hire for a higher role, they've got, on paper, what they said they can do, and they say they've done, which is probably true, but they don't know anything about our business, what we've been through, what we've learned. So it's a very good point, so much to learn from experience, and that's again like, Josh has done 5 years, Cass is going past 3, so I like bringing people up as well, because I know people can leave — they can, with the experience they've got here in their resume, so many companies would just snap people up. Obviously for me, that would be the worst thing ever, because I would be like, we're going to go there and do the same thing, like, why, why are you leaving here? Yeah, obviously we don't really have anyone that leaves to go to a competitor, ever — like sometimes people leave to go and work for themselves, which is great, we sort of encourage that and we'll help them, but yeah, we don't really get people leave to go to competitors.

Kane: And we've seen it before, and I've lost count of how many guys that have left thinking it was going to be better, and now they're back working for us — it's not that we are the best, but we're obviously doing something right, sometimes they think the grass is greener.

Finn: Yeah, sometimes it is, sometimes it is. Yeah, 100%, and like you said, losing people to other companies, people don't tend to just leave on their own — I mean, it's not like it's been a bad experience or anything, but it's more like they've been promised something elsewhere, and we see it all the time — you jump on Seek and see a job and go, "Oh man, that's 10 out of 10, that's ticking all the boxes, the pay's hectic, a 4-day work week, or I work 10-hour days, get a Friday or Monday off, whatever it is." It's never quite like that, it never works like that — the catch is, you're working in Mandurah every day and you live in Clarkson, or, "Oh, I go work FIFO," but they don't tell you that's 16 hours only for that one week you actually work, and then you don't get paid for the other week, so the pay isn't that good kind of thing. It happens so often.

Kane: Oh, yeah.

Finn: That's the thing, I think, to the boys that have left and then come back — some of them, one of them left, come back 2 days later, do you know what I mean? He worked his notice period with us, then I think he started on the Monday and called us on the Tuesday, to go, "Hey, is there still a position left at Smartfix by the end of the week?" And we were like, "Yeah, all good."

Kane: Yeah, yeah, I told you, I told you it's not that good, but yeah, that's — it's funny how things work out.

Finn: There's the funniest stories, I've got another one for you I'll share after as well. [laughter]

Kane: God, here we go. Cool, anything else you want to go through?

Finn: Covered a lot.

Kane: Yeah, I think it was a good chat.

Closing

Kane: All right, let's wrap it up. Thanks for sharing your honest journey.

Finn: It was good.

Kane: More years to come?

Finn: Yeah, I know, eight more.

Kane: Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Unlocking Business. If you've enjoyed this conversation, please take a second to like, subscribe, and follow our channels. It really helps us to bring on more guests and have great conversations. If you'd like to connect with today's guest, their details are in the description below. I'm Kane Taylor Smith. I'll see you on the next one.