Starting a Plumbing Business from Scratch | Rhys from Oceana Plumbing and Gas

Cold Open

Ruth: You can train someone up, but can you train someone's attitude up? I was like, "What the hell is this?" I was like, "I just paid it."

Kane: It's a bad way to go because you're locked in — you have to go to site with them full time. It helps you do the work. It doesn't help you grow the business.

Meet Ruth: Starting Ocean Plumbing and Gas Right Before COVID

Kane: Hey, I'm Kane Tyler Smith, the founder and CEO of SmartFix and High Potential. This is Unlocking Business, where we have real conversations around business, leadership, mindset, and personal growth. If you've been getting value from these conversations, please take a second to like, subscribe, and follow our channels. It helps us reach more people, bring on more guests, and share more stories. Now, let's get into this episode. Our guest today is Ruth from Ocean Plumbing and Gas. How you going?

Ruth: Looking bad yourself?

Kane: Good. So, what is your business and when did you start?

Ruth: So, we do plumbing and gas. I started at a weird time, through COVID. I was doing — after I was a plumber, I did some hydraulic design, which is just drawing up plans, doing that for schools and stuff. And then I was doing that, and on the side doing a couple of jobs as a contractor, just by myself, and actually speaking to yourself, I remember going to do that and was earning good money by myself, and then decided to stop that and do my thing full-time, and that was about 2019. And I think COVID started literally like 3 months after, and I was like, "Yeah, right, what do I do now?" Luckily I was actually with mom and dad, so I just thought — it was a weird time, I didn't even know what you do then, like, "What's it like living at home still?"

Kane: Yeah.

Ruth: Yeah, yeah. So cuz I knew I had to save up money because I was like, I don't want to be using anything, don't want to have a house, I was like, this is my time to do it. So I started up, I was with mom and dad to see if it was going to work, and then, yeah, COVID happened, I was like, man, lucky, cuz we didn't know what was going to happen, I was like, no work was out there, everyone was scared. So, I had that 3-month period, and then I think from there I was like, "Oh, what do I do?" And then it just went ballistic — everyone was just trying to do bathroom runners, I had people saying, "I want a shower in my bathroom, I just want to put a bath there," I was like, "Okay." So, we're doing random jobs like that, and then I kind of just scaled from there.

Why COVID Was Actually Good for Home Renovation Trades

Kane: So, you found during COVID you were more busy because people were spending money at their homes?

Ruth: Yeah, it was like a stage where we were doing emergencies, and then people were lining up at Bunnings because they couldn't go to work, so Bunnings was just crazy. And yeah, everyone just started doing random things, wanting to do renovations, couldn't go on holidays, so they decided they just want to do stuff around the house.

Kane: Yeah, we talk about that the other day cuz we were talking about the fuel prices and the war, and I had a feeling we might have the same scenario where people aren't going on international holidays, they don't want to drive long distances, they can't go to Europe and those places because of the war, so I thought we might have the same effect — we still might, but it might be in a month or so.

Ruth: Yeah, I don't — yeah, cuz like obviously when it happened, we had this stimulus that came out, and they were trying to push more money, so I think people had that where this time it was like, I think they got burnt last time from the government giving that much money out, they're like, "Oh, we might not do it." And it's only fuel where fuel's kind of gone down a bit. But for us, I think it's just getting driving around — we're trying to be a bit more smart when we're doing quotes, trying to be smart when we're doing jobs and not just going out there for no reason, giving them a quote just leaving. We're trying to actually give them an actual way of wanting to go with us kind of thing. So we're not just going, "Yeah, it's going to be this price," we're actually going, "Do you want us to investigate first? Do you want us to do a couple of things before we leave, so we're not just driving around and wasting money."

Kane: Did you have staff throughout that COVID period?

Ruth: I think I got one just after, but no, I just started pretty much — it was about 2020, March, when I think we got shut down, but we were lucky in Perth with Macgowan blocking the borders, we got lucky then. But no, I didn't have any, not like yourself, I know you had a couple, you had a lot of guys for this.

Kane: Yeah, for us it was sort of similar to what you just said — it was obviously scary at the start, but yeah, there was so much home renovation work going on that it was probably one of the best things that happened for our business. And then we got an incentive if your business went down 20%, you got that money.

Ruth: They made a mistake on that one — they probably gave out way too much money.

Kane: Yeah, so that was good just to get into the hang of things, didn't really have to advertise, and then kind of died down, and then we had to put some guys on — I had one start with me, through just needing help for renovations, cuz I needed another person. And the reason I actually put him on is I was doing all these things, I had jobs lined up for a couple of weeks, I got sick — and I'm not someone that has sickies all the time — I had three days off and I just couldn't work, and I had people going, "What am I supposed to do?" So I thought, from that, I actually need to get someone to actually cover me, and that was the main reason I got someone to come in and help me out, just in case I couldn't physically work, or injured myself playing soccer — I had to get someone just to cover me, go there, do this. So that was the start of getting someone, and then from there got someone else who wanted to join because he didn't enjoy where he was at before, and then kind of went from there, got an apprentice.

Apprentice vs Tradesman as Your First Employee

Kane: The question that's come up already twice in previous podcasts is, was your first employee a tradey or an apprentice?

Ruth: He was from the UK, as a tradey, he came here and then he had to do a bridging course. So he came as a fourth year apprentice, kind of, so I knew exactly where he was at, and then, from there, he had to spend a lot of money coming from the Commonwealth as well, from the UK. I can't remember how much he was spending, it was like maybe nearly could be up to like 10k.

Kane: Yeah, I think it is.

Ruth: Just to do that. And it only took him about 3 months for him to get around knowing what to do, and then he got that as a tradey. And then the other guy I got was mature age, and he was about a fourth year as well, then he got signed off with us as well.

Kane: Yeah. The reason I asked is because it's come up where a lot of people take on an apprentice as their first employee, but I think that's a bad way to go, because you're locked in, you have to go to site with them full-time — it helps you do the work, but it doesn't help you grow the business.

Ruth: No, I think I've spoken to a couple of guys with this, and they were like, "What do I do when I get a tradey?" But I don't know, first year is not bad if you're someone that's working all the time, because you're going to be able to train him up exactly how you want to train him up. If you get a tradesman, they're going to do things how they've been previously taught. So it depends on the guy — if you want to have a day off here and there, that's what I was going to say.

Kane: Yeah, depends if you're happy being on the tools 38 hours a week, because obviously that's what you have to pay the apprentice, or if you're trying to grow and want to spend that other time growing the business. That's where I think having a tradey at the start sometimes is better, if you want to get off the tools, because then you can send them to jobs by themselves once you've made sure they're good enough.

Ruth: Yeah, so I think — I've had, I think I've signed three guys off now — one from the very start, and he's pretty much done exactly what we're doing. But the other thing is, he was mature age, he came from a supplies background, so he already had a massive jump start from everyone. And then we've currently got another young kid, he's 19, going into his fourth year, and he's been with us from the start. So the only probably bad thing that I've got is probably a bit too nice on the guys as well, a bit too kind, not like the old days.

Ruth's Own Apprenticeship: A Firm Boss vs a Sales-Focused Boss

Kane: No.

Ruth: Yeah, so coming from my background, I had the first company I stayed with for like seven years, had a boss that was really good at teaching me exactly how to fix everything from the start — he was quite a firm boss, not many people stayed if you didn't do the right thing, and kind of like learn to switch on and think by yourself. And then the second company I went with was more like a business kind of company, I reckon, like how to go there and, like, sales — tell the customer, if we can't repair it for 100, let's just replace it, and then guarantee that's going to work. So I had both kind of sides of a company, and that's helped me with my business.

Kane: So where you done your apprenticeship, how long did you stay once you qualified?

Ruth: I think two to three years. And that's what I've spoken to a lot of people about — you got to do the right thing, you as a boss, you're really losing money from the first two years unless you kind of help it, getting your guys out, and then by once they hit four year, you're really making a bit back from what they've damaged and stuff. And as a tradesman, well, you stay if you're happy, you know what I mean, there's no point starting your own thing up if you had a good time, because it might not work out.

Kane: I think sometimes people get excited when they qualify, that's when they start looking around. It is frustrating if you put that investment into someone for 4 years and then they qualify and go, "I'm going to go FIFO now."

Managing Staff Who Want to Go FIFO

Ruth: Yeah. The thing is, what we've spoken about with FIFO is they're doing those long hours, you're probably going to make that if you speak to your boss and go, "Listen, I want to do FIFO, can we work something out?" We've got a job now, we do mainly residential, but there's a job up north, and it's like, okay, well I'll speak to the guys, do you want to do it? I never got the chance to do the mines, but I've had people go up there and they come straight back cuz they don't like missing out on the weekends, which is fair enough. But if you do it for a stint and you want to earn some money and do like a 10-hour day — everyone says they want to work, and then you say, "Oh listen, I got a job on Saturday," and it's like, "But I get it, I don't blame him, like I do some jobs on Saturdays if I don't want to do it."

What Pushed Ruth to Start His Own Business

Kane: What was the reason you wanted to start your own business?

Ruth: I think I was doing a lot of jobs on the side with a few friends, and it wasn't something I always was going to do, but I think what happened was, when I was doing about 3 days a week with a company doing designing, I was sitting in a chair a lot of the day, getting a train, it was a completely different life from going as a tradesman and then going to an office life, it was very different. And before that I actually got a diploma in engineering as well, just to try something different. And then I was doing three days a week in an office, and the other two days I was doing jobs — I was lining up jobs, no advertising, I could do a hot water unit, I could do filters, so I had all these jobs lined up, which were 8-hour days, and I was obviously earning more doing that. And I remember speaking to yourself, and you were going, "I think you're mad not to just do your own thing," and then you got another issue, "How am I going to fill those other three days up?" Everyone just doesn't give you jobs — okay, these are all friends and family referrals, and I didn't have any overheads — I was like, "Oh, this is crazy," and then now it's like, "Oh, hang on a minute, I've got all these overheads, insurances, I've got to find work," I'm like, weigh it up.

Why Ruth Got a Diploma in Civil and Structural Engineering

Kane: Why did you get into the engineering thing?

Ruth: I wanted to do something different — I remember at TAFE, when I was doing the contractor's course, I was doing the drawings and quite enjoying it, and I thought this could be something different. But what ended up happening is, when I did it, I went into the office — this was before COVID — I had great guys that I worked with, I actually enjoyed working, just something different. But I just wanted something different, and I'd always — if I didn't do that, I'd always be in the back of my head like, "I wonder what that would have been like, being in an office job." And I tried it, and I was like, yeah, it's going to be hard to sit in a chair for probably 10, 15 years to get that knowledge before I don't know, I can advance from there — you really had to do that for 10, 15 years.

Kane: So, how did you get your diploma?

Ruth: So I went to — after I left my boss as a tradesman, I went on holidays, had a bit of a gap year, and then from there decided, okay, what am I going to do when I go back — I have to really use my plumbing knowledge, I'll try and do hydraulic design, which is drawings and everything to still do with plumbing, but engineering. So I had to do a course, which was a diploma of civil and structural engineering — did that for a whole year, it was different again, because I was going to class learning how to do physics, and I didn't really put my hand up for physics class at school, so had to do a lot of learning again, back to school. And then, from there, I found a job, saying I had that diploma, and he said, "Oh, you don't really need it, but it's obviously good, cuz I had to use AutoCAD and everything like that." And then when I left there, started my own thing, that's when COVID happened, so it's just something different.

Kane: That AutoCAD you mentioned, that's the drawing software, computer software, for doing the drawings.

Ruth: Yeah, so did that. And then there was another one called Revit, and at the time my boss wanted to put me onto full-time work, and that's when I was like, "Oh, actually, before you do that, I might come back." But I think a lot of the guys kind of knew that was going to happen with me, and that's the biggest issue there — they said they have a lot of people come through and it's very difficult to stay in a chair, cuz I was trying to get all my work done really quick, and the one guy would have six coffees next to me, and I was like, "I'm just — go man, have a coffee, have a coffee." I'm like, I just want to get my work done, and he's like, "Mate, you need to relax, you need to chill, this is a two-month job, you're not going to be able to get it done in a day."

How Ruth Structures His Team Today

Kane: So how does that work with you now then? How many people do you have right now?

Ruth: I think nine, on the pace.

Kane: And are you not in the office full-time then?

Ruth: I try not to be — I probably should be maybe like 70%, I could be at 100, but again, I like to be out on the jobs. So we've got an admin girl, she's there, she does a lot of the stuff that I was covering before, and gives me a chance to go out with the guys and have a bit of competition to see who's the best.

Kane: So that admin person you just hired, that was a new hire, hey?

Ruth: Yeah, so I had my sister doing it, and she's got three kids, so it got a bit hard for her. And then I thought I'll be able to do it — I got my head, put a couple of apps in place, I thought I'll be able to do it, but no, it was pretty much suicide for me, trying to answer the guys' calls and answer people trying to go out and still do jobs, trying to do quotes. So, yeah, when I got her in, she already had experience doing that before, so it was very easy for her to go into. So now it's just a matter of me training the guys up, doing a lot of automation now — trying to get everything, but I still like going on the jobs as well, don't want to lose my touch.

Kane: Blow out the cobwebs.

Ruth's Advice on Finding and Keeping Good Staff

Kane: So that's the topic you want to talk about today — staff, finding good tradies or staff in general and keeping them. What's your advice for that?

Ruth: I think the biggest thing that I always think is, with guys, everyone's good at different things — not one person's going to be the jack of all trades and be the master at everything. Everyone's kind of good in their own way. It's the same as me — I might not be — I know you're a very organized guy, very structured, you'll go to the gym every time, whereas I'm like, "Oh yeah, I want to do a job today," I want to kind of float around and do a few different things. So we might have someone that's very good at going to the job, speaking to the client, trying to push into that thing — now I'm not going to have that guy be good at, I don't know, doing drains and digging holes, he might not enjoy it. So, I remember we had — I got one guy that's still with us now, and it's a funny story — he came to us, we had a week where I was like, "Oh, he wants to get back into plumbing, he was a plumber in the UK, he's come back to us and said, 'I want to do plumbing again, I've seen you guys did actually a job for me at my house, would you consider it?'" I said, "Come in, have a week with us." I had a torrid week planned, it was a hard week. And he went with one of the guys, and it was hectic, and at the end he's like, "Oh, listen, I don't know if I can do this." And I was like, "Listen, bear with me, I'm telling you right now that was just a really hard week, I'll be generally honest, but do another week." Anyway, he stayed with us, and he's done over a year, maybe a year and a half, two years, we've seen the worst at the start, and that's it — a lot of the time you just got to be honest with the guys and say, if they don't enjoy it, well, that's just how it is, and unfortunately you have to go your separate ways. But I think the guys that have left us have only gone to do their own thing, they've not gone to another company. Everyone's tailored to what they're good at, and if they're not enjoying it, I'm open for them to come talk to me and say, "Listen, I'm not enjoying this, I want to do this," and then we can work out a way, and I'll just be honest, well, this has to be like this, we can't not do that, and it's just up to you. And it's been fair as well, trying to — if one guy's had a really busy two days, he's not just going to get smashed and the other guy — everyone's kind of good, but if he's doing that — hang on a minute, you don't do your paperwork, you don't do that, he's doing all these checklists, and that's why it's easier for me — whatever job makes my life easier — but if there's a job that is very hard, digging or very complicated, I'm the first one — if I don't think they can do it, I'll go there 100%, I'll figure it out with you, let's work together and get it done. So it's not like throwing them in the deep end — I don't really know, I just have to figure it out, even though they are tradesmen, but at the same time I'm still learning as well.

Keeping Staff Happy by Letting Them Do What They're Good At

Kane: So will you try and keep people doing the things that they're good at or prefer doing for that reason? Is that what keeps them with you for a long period of time?

Ruth: I don't know, I'd have to probably ask them, I've probably not asked them that question before, but I'd say you can kind of get a feeling when they talk to you at the end of the day, and you can kind of suss out — if it's a hard job and they've done well, then I'll probably say, "Listen, good stuff, well done." If they make mistakes, okay, well, why are they making mistakes? Is it because I'm pushing them too hard, am I drilling them? And at the same time it's give and take — if they'll be working really late one night, I don't mind saying, "Listen, do you want to have a bit of the morning off?" It's the same as if we're doing our own thing, if you're getting drilled, it's like, "Okay, let's work, I'm going to work Saturday morning, do a hard day, I might have Thursday morning off." I just ask the same question to them and treat them like how I would like to be treated as well.

Kane: Make it flexible.

Ruth: Yeah, make it flexible. But I know some businesses, it's going to be hard — I'm still probably hands-on, where I know it's hard for other people that have a lot more people, they don't really have the time to do that. So it's up to their managers, where I'm personally in there and I can go, "Okay, listen." But sometimes it's like, yeah, probably maybe get a bit too nice, but at the same time, you put more effort into them, the longer they stay, it ends up being a lot easier.

Kane: It is a fine line with being too nice or too mean, but that line in the middle is quite hard to balance, because you have to keep them happy — they know they can walk out and walk into another job for the same pay somewhere else, more than likely, because there is such a trade shortage still.

Ruth: Yeah, exactly, and I've said to the guys, if they're really not happy, it's not jail, it's not school, you can leave, but at the same time you just want to hope they talk to you and say, if they're good — but sometimes I've said, do you want me to scream? Am I going to get a reaction if I get angry? That's not me, I don't want to do that, I just want to be very fair. But me and you have both been doing it for that long, and I said to them, there's no job that I haven't done that they're doing — I know exactly roughly how long it takes. But if you've had a week where every client and everything's going wrong, well, there's something not right — like, do you need the skills? So, to teach — do you need help in this, is there on this piece of paper what can you do? So I think the biggest thing I'm trying to do with the apprentice now is have a list of everything we do, and if you're unsure of something, highlight it, we'll have you go with one of the trades and — but don't say you know how to do it and then get to the job and go, "Actually, I wasn't really watching him." I was paranoid when I was doing my apprenticeship — I didn't even want to have the holidays, cuz I was scared I was going to miss something.

Why Referrals Beat Seek for Finding Good Trades Staff

Kane: And how do you get staff started? You use Seek or other platforms?

Ruth: I think I know you were telling me about Seek, but it's pretty expensive, and it's hard — I think referrals would probably be the best, you would probably know, speaking to other people, but I've never — I've put a couple of flyers out, it is difficult.

Kane: So you never had to use Seek?

Ruth: Once, and never picked someone from it.

Kane: Right. So yeah, it's a hard one, like some of our best staff have come from referrals.

Ruth: I know, I knew that was sort of how you got yours as well.

Kane: Yeah, we've had a couple of people that have come, and I've had to train them. I think people expect them to come in and just be like — is it like a lottery? You need to be able to teach them your way.

Ruth: Because it's the same thing, like if you come in, this is how we're going to do it, as long as you know how to half figure stuff out — if you're a tradesman, if you're an apprentice, okay, what level are you at? Go with me, go with one of the guys, they will come back to me and go, "Yeah, listen, tell me the worst thing off the bat, don't say, 'Yeah, I'm fine,' tell me, 'I don't know how to do this, but I'm really good at that,'" and it's like, "That's fine, we'll teach you that."

Kane: So, yeah, I think a lot of it comes down to attitude, and I think what you just said is a good point — it's so hard when people come into the interview and say, "Yeah, I can do that, I can do this," then you put them with someone for a week or so to learn your systems, and then they get put on that job, and they're like, "Oh, I've never done a hot water system before."

Ruth: Yeah.

Kane: You said you could do everything, just be honest — you got to be honest, because again, people are happy to train — we do it all the time, if someone comes to us as an electrician and hasn't done a switch before, we'll make sure we put them with a tradey who's done them, do five or six, go through the testing process — we need to make sure they're good enough, and we're willing to put the time into training people because it's hard to get staff.

Ruth: Yeah, I know. It's just, like, when you first get someone new, you're not throwing heaps of stuff at them, you're just, "Okay, can you do this?" And you're walking on eggshells, checking the photos, have they done the right thing, have they spoken to the customer right, have they made no mistakes — you're just covering their time, and then, eventually, after a couple of weeks, okay, can they actually start making a bit of money. And then I always say to the guys, if you're really good at doing everything, well, you're going to be on a few jobs, float around and do everything, and you're going to be on harder jobs, but maybe with an apprentice, if you're just doing the standard stuff, you really need to be able to do the standard stuff before you go up to the next level. And then if you're good at that, and the other guys are coming in, trying to learn, they're going to go on the standard jobs — could be anything, hot water system, filters, the general stuff — and then you move them up to the renovations, and have someone with him, but you need to be able to do the foundations first, and then move up from there. And then it's just a judge of character — as a boss, I need to know who's good at what, and that's the hard thing, moving on from scheduling jobs, getting someone else to do it — oh, actually he's good at, you need to train them up from there. So it is all about training.

When a Tradie Asks for a Pay Rise: Tier Systems and Incentives

Kane: I was going to say, so that's what we've spoken a lot about, with you saying you've got someone that's at the foundations level, but then they've asked for a pay rise, and that's where we've spoken a lot about, well, you need to be able to do like a tier — become a tier two or tier three, do those things other people can't do, and that's how you can earn money. I'm literally giving a pay rise, that's actually good, sweet, I'm happy to do that because I don't want you to leave and get annoyed, but at the same time, a lot of work, when we were younger, it was just hourly rate, that's it — you'd be doing 40 hours, probably doing 43, and only getting paid for 40, sometimes at the start. Now it's all kind of moved into percentages, and you're getting paid, but then you're also getting a bonus for just doing your job — which is just how it is now, and I don't mind it, you're getting an incentive. So we're trying to push incentives now — if you do a better job, you've got an incentive to do a good job, do it quicker, be neat, be tidy, don't have mistakes, and then that's up to them, that's up to them to do that. It's not just, "Oh, I want a pay rise," it's, "I'm happy to do it, but can you do these things?" You're still doing the foundation's job — if you can do everything well, it's like — I've naturally had to push, I've naturally given pay rises without them even asking, cuz I'm like, "You're doing really well."

Do Incentives and Bonuses Actually Motivate Tradies?

Kane: Do you feel like the incentives make a difference for them? Do you think they appreciate the fact they can earn that extra bit of money?

Ruth: I kind of go off — that's how I would like it. When I was younger, I was still young doing it, and my thing was building myself up, can I do it? If I couldn't do something, I was always kind of annoyed at myself that I couldn't do it, and I didn't want to be someone caught out with other people — if I went to a site and there was another plumber there, you kind of want to be on the same playing field as them, not too sure actually. So I've always been like that. And then the incentives and bonus is just more appreciation for doing your job well — not every job's going to go right, we know that, but when it does go right, at least you're going, "Ah, sick, that went right." And I've got an incentive bonus as well, and at the same time I'm helping the company — not just if you have a really good day one day, the next day might be very average, but they always go, "Oh yeah, but that day I did really well." It's like, well, all you're doing is just, that money's just gone into the other job, and then now you just balance it out, we're just still even now.

Kane: Yeah, and that's what, when you look at the figures at the end of the years and end of the week, you can kind of gather that.

Ruth: So if they've done really two or three really good days and then we're quiet Thursday, Friday, they still get paid their pay anyway.

Kane: Yeah, you're still getting paid.

Ruth: And that's where it's like, okay, downtime we try and clean the vans out, get everything ready, stock, tape, do all those things. So when you go to a job, it's going to make your life — cuz every time you'd start the week, if you got into a — I don't think you've ever had a messy van.

Kane: So, you know what I mean, like for me, I'd want to get my job done, and then like, I'd maybe put that bit of rubbish in a pile, and if you get into a cleaner van at the start of the week, it's going to make your day go a lot smoother.

Ruth: And at the same time, it's teaching the apprentices that — this is what I'm trying to teach you guys, this is how I work quicker, is having the right stuff on there, and then you're going to enjoy your job as well, not just have everything everywhere, like, something to organize. Like a lot of the stuff now, I remember ServiceM8 wasn't around when we were apprentices, was — I don't know, it was —

Kane: ServiceM8 when —

Ruth: I think we used one that the company custom built, but I don't — my apprenticeship was done with paper.

Kane: Paper — write it down.

Ruth: So I know when we first started I had paper as well, and then it went to that.

Kane: So yeah, everything's just —

Ruth: Does that mean we're old? [laughter] Come up with technology.

Would You Ever Go Back to Working for a Company?

Kane: Do you ever have days where you think it'd just be easy to go and work for a business again?

Ruth: Yeah. Holidays.

Kane: The holidays.

Ruth: Holidays, weekends, yeah, I still do work on the weekends, I think I've had like one, maybe a week and a half off in the last few, and like, it kills me — that's the other thing, I'm always kind of stressing when I'm not there, because I'm like, is everything going all right, someone's calling me. But yeah, 100%, if I was at a company, like myself, I reckon I would, because I'd be like, just be honest, just do my thing and go home, everything's — you can't, for a business owner, you can't really go and start buying heaps of stuff and maxing stuff out, because what happens if stuff goes sideways — perfect example, the war going on right now, what happens if the government —

Kane: You can lose a lot of money very fast, overheads.

Ruth: Yeah, exactly. So that's one thing, the holidays, and when you go home, public holidays as well, don't even enjoy public holidays anymore.

Kane: Terrible for business.

Ruth: I know, cost another one, we got another one on Monday, are you serious? I would enjoy just — when those came, it was the best feeling ever, now it's just another day.

Kane: Mhm, that's one thing that I know, but 100% I would definitely consider it.

What Advice Would Ruth Give His Younger Self?

Kane: If you were starting out again, what advice would you give yourself?

Ruth: I think being at the start, building a foundation early, because obviously I was just doing side hustles at the start and cashies, and I think, where you're probably better than me, I was kind of like, oh, I might not be doing that for that long, and then I kind of just chose a name out of thin air, like I was playing a game and then chose a logo, $50, I kind of just was like, "Oh, I just need to get something going," where I wish I knew, "I'm doing this for 3 years," get my account in order, get my receipts, everything kind of in order, and build from there. It's only — I'm obviously set up now with everything, but before it was just kind of a lot of stuff just like — and which some businesses are going to do — you're going to just be like, I need to be working, and then I'm after hours on a Saturday, then I'm going to have to sort stuff out, but I think being organized at the start and everything pre-set up.

Kane: So some of the basic systems at the start.

Ruth: Yeah, and, like, this is how we're doing it, automation, when you're doing yourself, I'll just do sticky notes and stuff like that, write it on a piece of paper, but I wish I was a bit more organized, and, "No, this is how," and then adding stuff towards that.

Kane: Was it a hard transition when you did start to add those systems in?

Ruth: Well, I think the ads, sorry, ServiceM8 and the systems came in when the first employee was actually going by himself, so I could go back to jobs and check those ones, but yeah, a bit messy, maybe took a bit of time training the guys.

Kane: Yeah, I think that was the same with me — I definitely had books, the old school books with carbon copy, I had them for a fair while, but when I took on the first couple of apprentices, I'm pretty sure that's where I started using ServiceM8, and I looked at loads of different CRMs, and it seemed like it was the easiest one to use, and we still use it now.

Ruth: I don't know, you use the same ServiceM8?

Kane: Yeah.

Ruth: Like there's a few different subscriptions which raise overheads, but hopefully causes less stress. It's like it's not helping you now, it's more helping if you get stuff in the past — using your Xero, using your ServiceM8, doing all that stuff, just in case you don't get caught later down the track, like, "Oh, you guys did this," or you kind of got all that stuff organized with your foundations, and you can go, "Yeah, we actually did this, replacement, we did that part," which is pretty basic stuff, I would think that you kind of need to have an order.

Kane: I don't know, not everyone does.

Ruth: No, that's it — it is important, even for compliance, like if you were to get audited by the ATO, at least now everything's Xero.

Kane: Yeah, yeah.

Ruth: And that's probably a thing that I do hear some people kind of go, "I'm doing that myself, I don't need it," and I'm like, "What happens if — " like it's an insurance policy really.

Insurance, Bookkeeping, and Everything Nobody Tells You at TAFE

Kane: Yeah. Having the insurances for the guys and stuff like that is a lot of stuff you have to do, which, hey, no one really taught me.

Ruth: Like, no, I remember speaking, I was thinking I was speaking to yourself when I started off and paid my BAS, I was like, these are expensive, and then I came to the end of the year, it's like, "Okay, so here's your income tax," I was like, "What the hell is this? I just paid it." No, this is like — and I don't know how I would have been there in my early 20s, I was like, "Yeah, right," and now I'm like, that's just — no one told me that. No one told me about the insurance, comp, I just thought government pays, you know what I mean, like, it's crazy.

Kane: But yeah, you learn that stuff at TAFE — nah, or your contractors — that's — no —

Ruth: Where are you supposed to — I know, how are you supposed to know what you're supposed to do on the job, like JSAs and stuff, if you haven't done it before, there's so many little things you're like, oh, what the hell, I might say income tax, someone else might say BAS, someone else might say insurance. So, and I know that's what you're trying to help out with a lot of people, like —

Kane: Yeah, exactly that. But yeah, there's so many things, like an insurance — there's workers compensation, public liability, there's management liability, office insurance, contents insurance for the vehicles — not just the vehicles itself, but the contents inside the vehicles, because you need to ensure the guy's tools are covered as well.

Ruth: And that's probably one thing, I don't know if that's why you started doing things — I remember asking you, cuz you were obviously 3 years ahead of me, it was always like, "Oh, have you done that?" You always got to ask someone. We don't really know — I would say we started young, well, you were doing a lot of stuff when you were younger as well, but I don't know.

Kane: I think that's where a lot of people do start, young.

Ruth: Yeah. I think a lot of people do start when they are quite young, and I get questions now from people that are so far along in business, like, have you not been doing that already?

Kane: Yeah, but it's like, well, no one tells you — no one tells you until either you get caught, you get in trouble, or you have a conversation randomly and it comes up, like, long service leave things, like, oh, no, you got to call them and register yourself, so then you can start paying it, and it's a legal requirement. And even the accountant, when you speak to them about doing bookkeeping — I remember I was doing all my bookkeeping, and then I had a bookkeeper as well, and an accountant, and the accountant was like, "I was like, 'Yeah, yeah, I'll do it,'" he's like, "Well, why are you getting the bookkeeper to do that?" And I was like, cuz I enjoy doing that, but I know some people don't want to do that. The accountant is not going to tell you — you're not just going to ring — I don't know if people think, "Oh, the accountant will just tell me what I've got to do," like, no, he's just doing his own thing, he's just making sure your BAS is done, you still have to pay it. And there's tons of things like that, and I don't know, 5 years now, it's like I've only just got to that, "Oh, okay, I can — " and I'm still learning stuff to do with employees and going bigger. But yeah, no one really tells you that, unless you have someone older, but I didn't have any family — my dad worked for a company for 50 years.

Ruth: 50 years, so —

Kane: That's not trades, is it?

Ruth: No, he was a mechanic, and then he's now a pre — a manager, which organized, but he was there for 50 years, and seems really relaxed, been at the company for that long, just has his holidays and stuff like that.

Kane: But yeah, he's had a good boss, he always says he's had a very good boss, and that's why he stayed, and that's quite big there, everyone stays there.

The Moment Ruth Knew He'd Made the Right Decision

Kane: Can you share a specific moment when you realized you'd made the right decision, or have you made —

Ruth: I'll get back to you. Yeah, I think, having — I always treat my company like I've got a boss still.

Kane: Who's your boss?

Ruth: I know, the guy upstairs. I still make sure I try to get to jobs at, like, I try to get there at 7:30. I still treat it like someone's going to call me up and go, "Bro, what's going on?" I still think in my head, I've got a boss above me, and I'm calling the shots, but he's above me, so I'm still in that mood, like I've got to be there, I'm not just switching off like, "Oh yeah, it's all good." Obviously money, if you're not doing the right thing, you're going to lose it, you're going to be the first one that loses the money. But I always try to treat it like I'm still working for someone, without the holidays.

Kane: [laughter] Interesting perspective, hey.

Customer Service, Fault-Finding Fees, and Being Upfront About the Process

Kane: What's your thoughts on customer service and customer experience?

Ruth: I try — I've always been too nice sometimes at the very start, trying to do favors for everyone, it's kind of burnt me in the past. Now I'm just trying to have a protocol — this is our protocol. I've had this guy here, and he's like, unfortunately, this is our protocol, this is what we have to do, so we have to go investigate. If we go to a job and they want a quote, "Okay, yeah, I want a quote," "Cool, can you tell me what's going on?" "What do you mean, I just want a quote." "Well, I need to know what's going on" — unless it's like, "I want that tap here," it's more like fault finding, and that's it. So now we're saying, no, we need to investigate, I need to be able to do that, and we'll waive that fee. A lot of times we're quoting blind and getting burnt from there, so now we're just trying — and it's not something like they're trying to catch us out, no, we're too fair — and yes, there are other companies out there that might do the wrong thing, and that puts a bad look on plumbers, but unfortunately, that's our fundamentals, yes, we have to do it. And we'll look at repeat customers, and yes, we will do massive favors for them — we've had a client that's done so much work, called me at, like, 6:00 on a Friday night, or maybe Thursday night, just went out there and did it, I was like, just little things that we can do — we can't maybe do it for everyone, but I can go to sleep at night and feel really good, I'm not thinking, "I've done this," — I've actually had a job that's gone too well, and they've paid the invoice, and I'm like, actually I got to ring them up and say something. But, "Listen, the next one, no, that's what you quoted us, that's fine," and that's kind of the customers we want to deal with as well. So we're not trying to outreach to everyone, we want to be your plumbers, we want to be your plumber, if you kind of work with us. And a lot of people now, it's like, do you trust us? They might not trust you the first one, but by the second or third, they're like, "Whoever's there, don't worry." And that comes from having the same guys there for a while, they can see the same familiar face coming.

Are Customers Always Right? Explaining What's Actually Included in a Job

Kane: Are the customers always right?

Ruth: I think that's a retail thing, isn't it? Cuz that's — I try and tell the guys, yes, the customer, that's their house, treat it — I treat it as if this was my house, this is how I would do it, that's up to you. And if the client's saying something, I try and tell the guys, if you're there, you got to remember they're not a plumber, they want something, you got to tell them every bad outcome that can happen — yes, we're drilling into this, this can happen — like the amount of inclusions and extras and variations that we have to write in.

Kane: That's a good point that came up yesterday in a conversation I had with someone — clients don't know what is and what isn't included. For example, what we were talking about is a burst pipe under paving — as a plumber, you know you've got to remove the pavers, dig up the ground, repair the pipe, fill the ground back in, relay the paving — that's where the client doesn't know, the client's just going to assume the job's going to be fixed and left as is. But as the tradey, you need to explain, "I'm not a paver, some people work differently, I can lay it to the best of my ability, or I can neatly pile them to the side, fill it up so it's not a hazard, and you're going to have to get someone to come in after and lay it properly." But customers don't know that.

Ruth: Yeah, we had — as far as I got taught, you take a couple of pavers up, put them back, and just say, "Listen, I'm a plumber," you can still put pavers back, but I think it gets to the point where we had one yesterday, it was in a driveway for a strata, it's like, okay, I'm probably going to say I'm going to get a professional paver in just to cover us — we can make sure it's safe so they can still drive on it, but I've got a paver that I use and he's really good, he'll go out there and do it, kind of as a sidey — just to protect ourselves and make sure it's safe. If one of our guys does it, and then all these cars driving, and we've dug a hole that's not compacted, we don't have the tools — I reckon we've got so many tools we have to have, we're not going to be able to have compacting tools on the car as well, unless you want us to hire more stuff — how far do you want to go to do it?

Why Plumbers Carry So Much More Equipment Than Other Trades

Kane: Plumbing definitely has one of the highest amounts of tools, obviously electrical we don't really —

Ruth: Yeah, well, carpenters have loads too, but plumbing is a phenomenal amount of stuff. The other thing with, like, carpenters — most of our jobs, I'd say average, maybe a three-hour job, so we've got to be able to go to each job, whereas — I don't know, I'd have to speak to a carpenter, but majority of their jobs they're on a site all day, so you're just taking it out one day, taking it all off, and it's going back — we're constantly taking stuff in and out.

Kane: Drain machines.

Ruth: Oh yeah, big heavy — or you've got a specific guy that just does drain machines cuz for that reason — the equipment, camera, coil machine for cutting roots, mini machine for clearing grease, you've got six machines on there.

Kane: What value — I was going to say, if I got hit by a truck, it'd probably be over 100k with the car, right?

Ruth: Yeah, big investment, hey. And that's the other thing, you get to put fuel that's 98 in the Jetta.

Kane: So, premium.

Ruth: Yeah, so that's what people don't see — but we have to do the job correctly, and these are your tiers, this is the best thing, so we can offer that service to get it done. Like, I never had a Jetta when I was growing up as an apprentice, just had a machine that cleared everything, now it's like, this is easier, that's a luxury having a Jetta.

Kane: I think, cuz we spoke about this before, I think Jettas only came out since we've started our own businesses, the high pressure water —

Ruth: Yeah, as good, there's probably not as good people selling them properly. And I didn't have anyone to teach me, I had to figure it out — obviously did a course, had to do the course to know how to do it, and they weren't doing residential, they were doing watermain, like watercourse mains, so I was hopping in the park going, like, two people, I'm like, well, I'm never going to be able to do that on a residential site. So having that is really good, but again, taught myself how to do that, and then I taught the next guy, who taught the next guy.

How Big Does Ruth Want to Grow Ocean Plumbing and Gas?

Kane: How big do you want to grow your business?

Ruth: Just really enjoy it, trying to build foundations at the moment, and go from there, but I'm kind of happy where we are — got six vehicles.

Kane: Do you do much advertising?

Ruth: Yeah, kind of majority website, with Google, little booklets, and I try — a lot of people refer us, repeat customers, try online and stuff like that, so a bit of everything really.

Kane: Do you do much on social media?

Ruth: Not really, not as much as I should — probably need to do a bit more, should show our faces and photos and stuff like that.

Kane: Where can people find you if they want to look for it?

Ruth: Google, Facebook, Ocean Plumbing and Gas.

Kane: Yeah, Ocean Plumbing and Gas. Like, we're in Clarkson, so we've got an office there, but we're pretty much float around the northern suburbs.

Why Social Media and Faces of the Business Matter More Than Ever

Kane: That's come up a bit for us with the coaching clients — I think social media, I know it's obviously been around for a while, but I think is extremely important. For example, a carpenter that I know of, he's starting to do again, carpentry, bigger jobs, a little bit different to what you're doing, but he's doing a three-stage video, at the start of the job, midway through and after, and he's had heaps of followers just from more eyes on his work. He's also mentioned that it's a pretty fresh account, but he had a commercial job, again a little bit different, they were looking for a carpenter, they'd already spoken to him, they were sort of deciding who they're going to use, and they decided to look through social media to try and find something, and he said the competitors didn't have anything, whereas he had some videos and his face on there, so it's the face of the company, he's got some followers there, so I think it is becoming —

Ruth: Oh yeah, like we were talking the other day about you saying you like the videos when they have the video and the camera and do the POV videos.

Kane: Yeah, the POV videos.

Ruth: Yeah, so I think that's something we're definitely going to have to do — we do have a lot of videos, I try not to just post turds on a toilet, you know what I mean, but I can respect a few other things I see, like carpentry and electrical and plumbing, but I try to have proper variety. I know a lot of people want to see bathroom rens, that's a big thing, so a lot of the time we're more concentrating on getting it done properly, and then I'm like, damn it, I should have taken a before and after photo, but I'm more not stressing about, "Okay, I need to make sure the customer knows they need to have everything written out." So by the time I do that and the job's done, I should have taken photos before and after, yes, it does happen, and sometimes it's a photo that's really close up and not a far back photo. But we did actually finish one the other day, and they had a drop sheet on the ground, and we just said, "Hey, AI, can you just remove that drop sheet for us and put some mirrors up," cuz it didn't — and it just removed the drop sheet, so —

Kane: That's what's going to be a bit interesting about social media, is when — is that actually their job? That's a good point.

Ruth: I think they could probably edit videos as well, but I think that's where videos are very good as well, especially if you are filming yourself or someone's filming you or your tradey and they're doing the work — having that actual guy, you can kind of still suss out if it is AI, but it's moving that quick, I'm like, just typing in, "Hey, I need a little video for this," and it just does it.

Kane: We've only just started doing our social media for High Potential — the business coaching — and it definitely takes time, but I think just getting the reps in, having it consistent, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok — I've never used TikTok myself but I'm —

Ruth: I think I was the one who told you TikTok was pretty funny, and now I don't normally use it myself, but you start scrolling and the ones that I find addictive to watch are the — I think it's people using those meta glasses.

Kane: Yeah, it's the POV, have you got some?

Ruth: No, one of the guys has it, but again, it's not for jobs, it's like my Uber Eats guy coming to drop food off, and I'm filming him getting out of the car, and he's got a video — we want to post it, but I kind of need to get a couple of professional photos before we start doing these funny videos. There's a guy that did a TikTok video in the UK, all he did was film one of the guys making their lunch for today, and he's got this old van, three of them sit in there, they've just got a pan, he cooks, gets a Stanley knife out of the job and cuts onions, and just makes these videos, but that video went viral, now he's doing a video every day of them just making lunch. It's just, no one's ever done it, you're going to get a few funny ones, but I think there's a few plumbers I've seen where they have the same client they go back to, and people are just writing on there, "Can you go back to that guy's house?" And he's trying to be a plumber, crawls underneath the house, trying to follow and do the job.

Kane: Yeah, I think you just need that one viral video, but yeah, more eyes and business, cuz for us it's always been heavy Google Ads, paid ads advertising, so now for us it's definitely pushing our branding more, trying to get repeat clients more often, referrals as well, cuz it is hard to get people to refer you — people don't always go and talk about my plumbing work or whatever.

Why People Are Willing to Pay More for a Trusted Local Trade

Ruth: Yeah, 100%, they're just going to work out, we try and have the guys really based around a certain area, so if someone calls, we can get there that day. Same as yourself, we're able to — "Oh yeah, I got a burst pipe" — "Oh yeah, we can't get there till — " "Oh no worries, we'll see you tomorrow," "No, I need it now" — I get that, which is fine, "I got a blocked drain," so when people are — you're going to get people that go, "Oh my god, thank you so much for coming," but, "Is it that much? Well, hang on a minute" — we have to be ready for you to call, okay, that's fine if you really think that, but that's just the price, unfortunately, and we're going to do the job. And if we tell you something, it's like, "Yep, you're going to be fine, we're going to come back there, we're not going anywhere" — not just like the amount of stories everyone hears about Gumtree people coming in for the cheapest quote — like, we have so many conversations about stuff like that. And yeah, one came yesterday about Airtasker, and the lady was telling me she had someone out to do something outside, I can't remember if it was paving or something, but she went around and locked all her doors cuz she was so unsure of this person. And again, it comes down to, you do have to pay for a good service, and I think you have to do your research, find them on either Google or social media, and put a face to the name, or something, you got to trust them as well. Like I went and put blinds at my house, I don't know, I'm doing the same thing that everyone else does, I don't have a secret — I've got a couple of mates that do a couple of different trades, and then there's people that I don't know, okay, are they online, if they do social media, but unless you're looking for blinds for two months, your algorithm is going to change, maybe, and then you see all these videos come up, but out of the blue I was like, "Okay, they've got a load of Google reviews, they've got photos, okay, cool, they come over, they're professional," you just have to trust them. So you might get two quotes, when some people get like five, six quotes — come on, think about us, I understand where people get burnt before as well, so I get that, but just call up and maybe be honest with people. But yeah, if people get referred to us, that's probably one thing, I've had these guys out before, they're really good.

Kane: But I think that's — I was going to say to you, when you do look for people, same with us, we always ask for referrals, even if it's stuff for our business, whether it's an accountant or something, but even if we need something done, we will always try and get referrals for that reason — if they trust them, then I've got more chance in trusting them.

Ruth: Yeah, like people when they need emergencies, they'll probably use Google, go straight on there, "I need someone now," but we both know how much that costs to pay for that, then get someone out there — 150, I know, depending on, with plumbing and electrical, is probably the highest. If we're just going out to do a quote, we're just — business just lost that.

Kane: That's fine, people are subject to having a free quote for a renovation over five grand, yeah, fair enough — so I think for the high value jobs they're going to get multiple quotes, which is absolutely fair enough.

Ruth: And again, sometimes if you're more expensive than someone else, if you've got that branding there and the reviews, and they trust you more, some people will pay the higher price they trust — like outdoor blinds, inside blinds and stuff, I think I got two quotes when I did it, and then I might have spoken to you, or spoken to a mate, "Oh yeah, I've actually used them before, sweet," I chose them even though their price was similar. But again, I think you've touched on this in one of your videos, I think one of them took a lot longer to get the quote in, and the other one was quicker, they got the quote in, and unless it's a really complicated job, they got the quote to me quicker, and then they installed it, and had a bit of an issue where their installer came out putting a black blind in a black room, and I was like, "That's not the right one," he's like, "Yeah, it is," I might be — I'm the owner, no, it needs to be black, just ring him up, I don't want you installing it, then ripping it back out. And yeah, they did the wrong one, so that's what I want — but yeah, I don't — you have to get quotes.

Managing Google Reviews and Turning Bad Ones Around

Kane: What's your Google rating?

Ruth: I think it dropped down to 4.9 from — I think a review from another company, not — sorry, not another one, they must have used another company, and it went down to 4.9, so I think we're at — it was at five at 700 views.

Kane: 700 views, yeah, that's a good amount, hey.

Ruth: But yeah, it does make a difference, even though you can't measure exactly, guarantee you that makes a huge difference for either conversion rate or just people coming to you. I've had people have bad ones, and I've just caught up with them, "Sorry, what's the issue?" "Oh, you guys did this," and it's from the plumber being blatantly honest, "No, I have to do this, this is not right, your drains are sagging, we have to jet it, we can't just put a machine up for 200 bucks, that's fine, but it would block again." And after me speaking to them, they're like, "Okay, fair enough." We had another one that gave us a bad review, still on there — she was the owner, we went out to the tenant's place, the tenant asked us to do another job, we said no, unfortunately we'll have to get approval, owner didn't answer their phone, she gave us a two star review cuz we didn't just do it — the tenant, no, the owner — so we were like, "But we need to get approval from you." "Oh, I've used you guys before." "Yeah, no, we've used you before." Like, you can't win sometimes. And yeah, if there's a bad one, I'll just ring off and say, "Sorry, this is why we had to do it," they might not like — okay, it was a $1,000 job, unfortunately we've had to dig up this bigger section of pipe, they're just hating on us for it, but it's like, no, we're trying to do this for the right thing, you have to do that. But I don't think we've got any on there for stupid prices, or "you've yelled at us" or something.

Kane: I think it's important calling them, cuz sometimes customers don't want to bring up issues with you or the tradey on site, cuz they feel it's awkward.

Ruth: Yeah.

Kane: So sometimes if a job doesn't go perfect, they're unsure, they might speak to a friend, and someone says, "Oh no, that's terrible," even though they might not know the whole story, "Yeah, I'm going to do a review," they might get wound up. So for us, we call, same as you, we call every single one, "Hey, just saw your — if we can find out who it is, hey, we just saw your review online, do you mind telling me what your issues are?" Obviously we will try and do what we can to rectify the issues, and more often than not, they will remove it or update their review, "Oh, I didn't realize you'd come out and do that."

Ruth: Yeah, and I think, we're not McDonald's and bloody Nvidia, we're just local guys, that probably live next door to them, we're just trying to do the right thing, if the job didn't go smooth, yes it didn't go smooth, but how can we help? And I know there might be separate businesses to other people, where they go, "I've got the money, see you later, I'll just shut down," we're just trying to do the right thing, "Sorry, didn't know that was going to happen," we're not going out there to get one-star reviews.

Do Trades Have a Bad Reputation?

Kane: Do you think trades have a bad rap in general or bad reputation?

Ruth: Maybe, but the other thing is, if we go to a job and one job didn't go right for us, she's like, "You guys, all you tradies are the same," fixing stuff, and if we're fixing something and there might be another burst pipe further down, what are we expected to do, replace the whole lot? No, we've done a temporary fix, we go off statistics, 90%, 95% of the time that would be fine, okay, that other 5%, okay, there's a burst further along, now we might look at, let's give you a quote just to cover us — but a lot of the time we don't have a crystal ball.

Kane: Yeah, cuz then that's where you have issues, if you recommend that at the beginning, "Hey, I can repeat this section or the whole section," "Oh, you're trying to rip me off, I don't need the whole house."

Ruth: You can't win — that's where sometimes options are good, sometimes they're not.

Kane: We're still trying to work out what we're doing, whether we're trying to give three options, good, better, best, or not — we're getting mixed advice, mixed opinions, because you're the professional at the end of the day — if you go there and say, "I can do a patch repair here, option A, or this 2 m section, or the 10 m section from where it comes out of your slab to over there," my customer's like, "Well, I don't know, what do you suggest?" Obviously that's where you can recommend the whole thing, but you're just trying to get the highest value.

Ruth: Yeah, 100%. It's a tricky one — it's like, this is essential, you have to get this done, this is it, this is what we recommend, we do a bit bigger, if you want either premium, or if you want a guarantee from me, we replace every part and we can guarantee that work. If we're doing a hot water unit and people say, "Oh yeah, but such and such can do it for this price," yeah, that's just taking the old one out and putting the new one in, we can definitely do it for that, but we recommend, if you call us back and there's a leak on this fitting, once we do that price for that job, if there's a callback, we generally know it has to be our work, it has to be a little drip, like an old valve for example, we're leaving the job, there's no leaks, okay, 2 days later, "Oh, you guys left the leak," well it wasn't there when we left, we try and stay there as long as we can. So we're trying — and that's where that final option would be the recommended option, and the final option is upgrading the unit to a better model which has more warranty, and then it's just a matter of getting it serviced at that 5-year mark.

Gas Leaks: The Trade Nobody Trusts Until It's Too Late

Kane: And bringing things up to standard, I know that's a common one with plumbing.

Ruth: Yeah, that's a tricky one, it's like gas leaks — I could — we went to a job where, "Oh, I just need this connected," "Okay, you got a gas leak," "No, I don't, my bills aren't high," "Yeah, but you've got — I can't leave." We went out on a limb, tried, found there was a leak luckily, and it was a leak that's been there for years, next minute the hot water system doesn't — cuz it's that old, and it's like, "Oh, you guys stuffed it up," and you get — only gas fitters and plumbers will know that, and maybe people that's happened to before. So that's the same with gas — you can go around and just turn people's gas meters off and say, give them a leak.

Kane: Who would get fun if you do that though, cuz they think you might be trying to —

Ruth: Yeah, I know, and that's where you just got to trust your local — I know you can't even trust a local plumber maybe sometimes, people might say, but we're just trying to do the right thing.

Kane: So, yeah, it's fun and games.

Turning the Tables: Ruth Asks Kane About His Early Days

Kane: Should we turn the table?

Ruth: Let's do it. I think we're going to talk about history.

Kane: Yeah.

Ruth: I was going to say, you've always been someone where, when you started, you've never — I always say to your — cuz you've got so many employees, they always maybe underrate you knowing how good — I always thought you were very good, like an installer, you were at a company where you only had one guy?

Kane: Yeah, my apprenticeship, one man band.

Ruth: And then you went to a company where — how old were you when you moved?

Kane: Probably would have been maybe 19.

Ruth: 19, yeah, and then I remember from there they were moving one of the guys, and you were going, "I'm going to go start my own thing now" — at, like, how old were you when you thought first, when you were —

Kane: I think I did my apprenticeship, which is about 4 years, then I went to the other company, I was there for 2 years, I was going to leave to start my own thing, they offered me a job to become the manager, and I stayed for about another two years, then I started on my own.

Ruth: But I remember you were still like 20 and you were a manager already, and I remember you were organizing guys that were 30, 40 years old, and you were literally managing from there.

Kane: Oh yeah, that was always a hard one, managing people that were older than you.

Ruth: Yeah, cuz that's a big thing, I don't think I've ever had that, maybe I've been on a site and spoken to other contractors and stuff, but you've always had to manage from an early age, and it's cuz I always feel like when we did — when you used to do a side job, most people would be like, "Oh yeah, I'm young, I've got 100 bucks cash for this job," but you would actually write down on your notepad an actual list, which is crazy, when you're just instead of grabbing the money, you'd be writing, okay, "I use this GPO like this," and this is how long — you used to have a little notepad of all your stuff, and you could go back — so you're already, you know what I mean, managing yourself from an early age, knowing exactly what you had, and then when you went to that other company, you were pretty much running a big company, and it's not like you came from a company that had — you went from one man to that, and they went straight away, "You're going to become the manager," cuz you were good at installs, but you were so thorough, you did everything by the book, everything was in order, and then you just started running, and started dabbling into plumbing straight away, even though you were still doing electrical as well. And then you left there, then started your own thing.

Kane: Yeah, I think I've always been pretty organized, maybe a bit OCD, but I do like having things prepared and organized, and obviously, like you said earlier, routine for me is everything.

Ruth: Yeah.

Kane: Throws my routine out of the day, it ruins me.

How Smartfix Uses Checklists at Every Handoff Between Departments

Ruth: And that's like trying to implement that to other guys, as best as you can, cuz not everyone's the same.

Kane: So, at Smart Fix, we do have a lot of systems in place, but it's hard to get everyone to do every single piece along the way, so we try as best we can, and we've got other managers in place now, so the tradey, the guy that quotes the job, he'll go to site, have his checklist, then that goes into the office, they'll have their checklist and make sure he's on his checklist, then he gets booked for the installer, he goes to site, has his own work order, another checklist, once he finishes a job, the next person has their checklist, make sure he's on his checklist. So it's just trying to make sure everything's done, and for me, customer experience, customer service, has always been super important from the start, and I feel like if we miss things along the way, the customer is the one that suffers, they might miss the electrical safety certificate, or miss getting sent their invoice, or the warranty documentation. So, just trying to do everything pretty good, in place now cuz we've been doing it so long, but again, having staff for long periods of time is good, because it's hard to bring new guys in and train them, because they forget, or it just takes time.

Ruth: Yeah, no, that's always — I feel like one of your strong points is, most trades, I would say, most of them are really good at the work, they work hard, but they never do the paperwork, and it's like there's no paper trail, whereas with you, everything was in order, you built the foundation, and it's like — not just hiring guys, "I'm going to hire someone else that's going to make more money, but it's going to help me out" — but if you don't have that foundation from the very start, having another guy for you now, if you've got those systems, it's just another guy, you just teach — it's like you'll find out from there if you need to train them up.

Kane: Yeah, exactly, so we're actually looking for two electricians at the moment, so we've got templates for Seek, we do put a message out, "Hey, we're looking for two electricians, if anyone's got any referrals, let us know," because we need them quite fast, we're just going to put a job on Seek anyway, we've got templates in place from previous job ads, so we put that on there, and as soon as people apply, we have our process in place — cool, let's do the screening process, call them, ask those basic questions, do the interview, someone will put them in an interview with someone else — Josh will do the interview — and if we offer it, they accept it, then we've got a whole onboarding process. So we try and do everything, but again, it just takes time — I think you got to tell someone something seven times before they remember or something, that's the statistics.

Ruth: It's like they're not going to read it, the amount of times I've written the stuff on there and then they ring, "Have you read it?" "Oh, oh yeah, yeah, yeah," and I'm like, "Okay, cool, sweet, no worries," which is fine, but again, people sometimes just want to have — I think with our trade we're not really with a lot of different people, we're not on a job site always with someone, you go with the apprentice, or it's an enjoyment when you see one of the other guys, but you're kind of a lone wolf really, the whole time. Sometimes people prefer — I always like variety, I like being maybe with myself, then maybe with someone else on another day with one of the guys, then with a builder.

Kane: So yeah, training him up, but no, it's — I think I did always like working by myself, but there's a lot of jobs where it's so much easier with a second person for the manual labor.

Ruth: Yeah, well, your old apprentice, he's doing his own thing, doesn't he, your first apprentice, Ben?

Kane: Yeah, oh yeah, so your brother, but then you had Max as well, he's got his own —

Ruth: He's growing pretty quick as well.

Kane: Yeah, so, yeah, them both, and then you came from here.

Why Kane Started High Potential

Kane: So I just want to touch on High Potential a little bit, because a lot of what we're talking about is systems from the start, and that's why I wanted to start High Potential — because we never had or dealt with business coaches for our whole time, it's only recently where I've been trying to speak to other businesses.

Ruth: Well, I think you've been naturally doing it from the start, because you've always been the first person to go, "All right, I'm going to go finance this car" — we don't have older brothers, I don't think we know many people that are older than us, you've got your younger brother, I've got — we're the oldest in our family, and our parents have not really been trades, so we've had no one. So you've naturally been the person that we've spoken to, and other mates have gone, "Oh, you've done that," yeah, you've always been like, "I'll just try it out." And I always used to say to you, "I'll just wait for Kane to do it first, and I'll see how it goes, and if it works out for Kane, then I might do it." So you've always done that at the start, but I think the one thing that I always think about is, when you're going, "If I'm doing this thing, I'll do this business coach," I'm like, "Yeah, that's good," trying to get people to do your mindset — like, you're very thorough, and I think that's one of the hardest things, cuz you're so good at it — like, "Listen, I've done all the hard work, I've done it, this is what you have to do, follow these steps, that's all you got to do, and any questions, I've been there, done it."

Kane: It's literally exactly the process we're going to go through, and it's hard, because there's a lot of things that I think are unteachable lessons — I keep hearing that recently, and it doesn't make sense, obviously, a lot of things we spoke about back in the day, and now you look back and go, "Yeah, definitely shouldn't have done that," but there's definitely things that no one would have told me that I wouldn't have tried.

Ruth: Yeah, and at the same time, you've got to make mistakes sometimes — not that I would know a mistake, but that's how I've kind of got here — okay, going to train someone different like that, going to do this, going to say that, but linking them all, I just wouldn't know. But everyone's going to have a different experience.

Kane: They do, and I'm learning a heap from people that are just starting out.

Ruth: Yeah, that's why I always say to you, "What, you're not doing that?" I'm like, "Dude, no one's like you, you were so structured in how you did stuff, and everything was in order." Like, most people wouldn't have that, and then you're probably listening to everyone's side, "Dude, you need to be doing this," and then someone else, "Mate, aren't you doing that," and I always say to you, not everyone's going to be like you, have that routine, but you've obviously been there, done that, you can make it a lot easier.

Kane: I think I've got to make it flexible, because obviously everyone is different — if there's one thing they really don't want to do, cool, maybe there's another way, you don't have to do it to that extent, let's just do at least half of that, and then we'll come back to it later, because you go through the rest of the process, and, "Yeah, I know what you mean now, I need to go and do that thing."

Ruth: Yeah, it's going to be fun. Big thing as well is, you've always been, if something doesn't work out, okay, cool, never dwelled on it — most people would be like, "Oh, that trade didn't work out at the start," "No, that's it, I'm done," you would be, "Cool, moving on straight away," pushing to the next thing, never dwelling on it — "Oh, that car didn't work out, sweet, have to quickly change over."

Kane: So that's one thing, I don't know if people starting out — you need to be able to, "Bro, I've done that, you learn from this." I've had my car written off, you've had a few vehicles, had accidents and stuff, so it's cool, it's like, you're not going, "That's it, getting rid of every car," it's cool, just get on with it, quickly get it done, move on to the next thing.

Ruth: Yeah, some people talk to me about the vehicle damage, cuz we have so many, it obviously happens, it's just natural — I don't know how you don't punish the guys more, you can't, it's just statistically going to happen, so we've got insurance, it's just a cost you have to factor into your pricing at the end of the day.

Kane: Exactly. And we know roughly how many incidents we have, we've got one coming out in about two weeks. [laughter] There'll be a little prank — take that "days since accident" sign, number down like zero.

Ruth: Lodge another insurance claim. Yeah, so like, they're the things you just kind of got to move on from there, and that's one thing I always think about with yourself, you just kind of get on with it, eh.

Kane: Yeah, you have to.

Our Biggest Hiring Mistake: Rushing to Fill Roles Too Fast

Ruth: Got my shake now. [laughter] Stolen your questions. Is there anything else we've missed, anything on hiring? I wanted to talk about the hiring stuff, but I suppose we've gone through that.

Kane: Yeah, that's something we've learned naturally — that's a probably good point to bring up, is, as you know, we've always hired very very fast, and I think that's been one of our biggest mistakes or biggest learning curves — again, now we're looking for two electricians, we're not going to rush and take on someone we think is like, "Yeah, they might be good enough." So now, our process is, we're going to do five to 10 interviews, even if the second person is amazing, we're going to go through 10 to make sure, then potentially second interview.

Can You Train Skills, But Can You Train Attitude?

Ruth: And I think one thing as well, that I probably haven't touched on, and I think I've seen it somewhere else — you can train someone up, but can you train someone's attitude up? No — and that's one thing that we've got everyone getting along with each other now, you have one bad egg that kind of ruins a lot. If you've got a good attitude and you're willing to do that, and you're willing to take advice, I don't mind training someone up — someone might get someone in, they're really good, but their attitude, they don't — I'd rather train someone up who's got the potential to get there, got the right attitude, can you see that I'm trying to work with you? I'm not being like an idiot to you, kind of work with me. And most of the guys would know, they've come from other places and said, "Yeah, I can be honest, they rip into me," and I'm like, "You know I'm supposed to be their boss," but I never say I'm the boss, I'm like, "You guys are the boss, or the guy upstairs," I said upstairs is the boss, I'm just here to work around, this is where all the money's going this way.

Kane: Yeah, we always hire for attitude — you can, like I said, we mentioned earlier, if someone comes to us, they've got loads of experience in residential where they haven't done air con, for example, because that's obviously very common, we pay a couple grand to put our guys through the course, and then we'll put them with a tradey that's good at doing air con for two or three weeks, and that's how we train them up. So that's a significant value we're putting into their time — yes, it's two grand for that, but pairing them with a tradey for two weeks costs us probably another 10 grand, cuz they're not bringing in value doing electrical jobs, we're investing time into them. So, we want to make sure they've got the right attitude, they're going to stay with us at least to try and help pay off their investment kind of thing.

Ruth: And that's where it goes — you get someone in, you've got to train them up, and then, "Okay, you're going to go on a little bit of a pay rise, can you do this, can you do this? Yep, yep, cool, cool, cool, okay." And the one thing I said to the guys is, you can master your stuff as a tradesman, okay, now I had one guy, "Can you go to this job, one of the trades there that hasn't really done it, and one of the apprentices, can you go to that job now, you run that one, I don't want you in the hole when they're watching you, I want you managing." "Oh, he's not done this," "I've got to go back to the job now," I'm like, "Well dude, that's what I said to you, you need to manage, that's the next step — do all your skills and trades, now the next step is, can you teach the other guys, help me out teaching them and showing them your skills?" And the first year I've got, when he started, I said, "You need to pick out all the attributes you want from each tradie and make that yourself" — not the bad ones, but I might be good at something, and he might go with other guys, "Oh, this guy does it better," I'm going to take that off him, and you learn from there, what it is. But hopefully the attitude from all the guys is really the same, and he just picks up the good attitude and work ethic, and then builds on the skills from there.

Kane: Yeah, you learn different tips and tricks from tradies even just doing the physical job — "Oh, he actually uses that tool, or he's got this certain tool that I'm actually going to buy now, make it a bit easier."

Ruth: Yeah, a bit neater — and that's one thing we always try to do, "Oh, is that tool going to make it easier?" "Yeah, that tool is going to make my life easier," "Well let's go get it" — if that's going to make your life easier, I'm all for that, the job's going to take half an hour less if we do that, or we're not going to have as many callbacks if we do it. Like, we got a reaming tool — I found one that you receat, you make it flush, and there's an internal reamer, I never got told that, I just saw it online, gave it to the guys, they're like, "Bro, that's the best thing," so I bought it for each of the guys, it was like 60, 80 bucks each, but I knew a callback's 150 — we're going to be doing taps all the time, so it was kind of a no-brainer. But realistically, tools like that, as a tradey, I know it maybe sucks, but you have to get your own tools.

Apprentice Wage Subsidies: How They've Changed Over the Years

Ruth: But the apprentice now, the first year, he's 6 months into his first year, he gets 10 grand — government rebate.

Kane: Really?

Ruth: Yeah, just — we had to sit down the apprentice and they're like, "Yeah, they get 10 grand now."

Kane: But, tool specifically?

Ruth: Yeah, okay, so — that changes all the time.

Kane: Yeah, it changes all the time — so we had another one that's a third, fourth year, he doesn't get that, I think he was about five — it's like doubled back when we did our apprenticeship, I think it was called Tools for Your Trade or something, and you could get a certain amount over six months, you got this and you got that, and then it changed to like you could get a loan.

Ruth: Yeah, the loan.

Kane: But you didn't have to use the loan for tools, I know there were guys that got caught out doing that.

Ruth: Buying cars.

Kane: Yeah, yeah, then you don't pay interest for a certain amount of time, and then you start paying interest or something.

Ruth: Yeah, they did — and there was a good one, well, when COVID was happening, when we had apprentices, you could have that rebate, I think it was like 50% of their wage, that was —

Kane: JobKeeper?

Ruth: Might have been JobKeeper, might have been another one, but I remember when I first got the apprentices, just after COVID, it was 50% of their wages for the first year, and then they got rid of it. But I don't know if they need to do something, because at the moment it's getting really hard to actually — what is the benefit of taking on an apprentice?

Kane: It's a hard one, we've been talking about that a lot recently, and it's tricky — they definitely need to have some sort of rebate. For us it's time at TAFE — there's so much time at TAFE, and if they don't pass TAFE, we pay for it, we pay to have them reset it, we pay for their time to go back and reset it, so it's a hard one, hey. But there's not enough trades out there.

Ruth: Yeah. What are you supposed to —

Kane: I don't want to say don't hire apprentices, but they needed someone to do something, I don't know what it is — help out, so, yeah.

Closing

Kane: Cool, well, this has been a great conversation. Do you want to refer back to your social media again?

Ruth: Uh, yeah, Ocean Plumbing and Gas.

Kane: What, Instagram, Facebook?

Ruth: Yeah, or Facebook, Instagram, Google, so yeah, need to reach out.

Kane: Thanks for coming on the show.

Ruth: Cheers, mate.

Kane: Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Unlocking Business. If you've enjoyed this conversation, please take a second to like, subscribe, and follow our channels. It really helps us to bring on more guests and have great conversations. If you'd like to connect with today's guest, the details are in the description below. I'm Kane Tyler Smith. I'll see you on the next one.