Starting a Plumbing Business from Scratch | Rhys Booth

[00:00] Cold open

Rhys: You can train someone up, but can you train someone's attitude up?

Rhys: I was like, "What is this?" I was like, "I just paid it."

Kane: It's a bad way to go because you're locked in. You have to go to site with them full time. It helps you do the work. It doesn't help you grow the business.

[00:09] Intro and welcome

Kane: Hey, I'm Kane Tyler Smith, the founder and CEO of Smartfix and Hypotential. This is Unlocking Business, where we have real conversations around business, leadership, mindset and personal growth. If you've been getting value from these conversations, please take a second to like, subscribe and follow our channels. It helps us reach more people, bring on more guests and share more stories. Now, let's get into this episode. Our guest today is Rhys Booth from Oceania Plumbing and Gas. How you going?

Rhys: Good, how about yourself?

Kane: Good. So, what is your business and when did you start?

Rhys: So, we do plumbing and gas. I started at a weird time, through COVID. After I was a plumber, I did some hydraulic design, which is just drawing up plans and doing that for schools and stuff, and then I was doing a couple of jobs on the side as a contractor, just by myself.

[01:02] Going out on his own just before COVID

Rhys: And actually, speaking to yourself, I remember going to do that, and I was earning good money by myself, and then I decided to stop that and do my thing full-time. That was about 2019, and I think COVID started literally like three months after, and I was like, "Yeah, right, what do I do now?" Luckily I was actually with Mum and Dad. It was a weird time. I didn't even know what you do then, in COVID.

Kane: What, living at home still?

Rhys: Yeah. So, because I knew I had to save up money. I didn't want to be using anything. Didn't want to have a house. I was like, this is my time to do it. So I started up with Mum and Dad to see if it was going to work. And then, yeah, COVID happened. I was like, man, lucky. Because we didn't know what was going to happen. No work was out there. Everyone was scared. So I had that three-month period, and then I think from there I was like, "Oh, what do I do?" And then it just went ballistic. Everyone was just trying to do renos and bathroom renos. I had people saying, "I've got a shower in my bathroom, I just want to put a bath there." I was like, okay. So I was doing random jobs like that, and then I kind of just scaled from there.

[02:05] The COVID renovation boom

Kane: So you found during COVID you were more busy, because people were spending money at their homes?

Rhys: Yeah. It was like a stage where we were doing emergencies, and then people were lining up at Bunnings because they couldn't go to work. Bunnings was just crazy. Everyone just started doing random things, wanting to do renovations. They couldn't go on holidays, so they decided they just wanted to do stuff around the house.

Kane: Yeah, we were talking about that the other day, because we were talking about the fuel prices and the war, and I had a feeling we might have the same scenario, where people aren't going on interstate holidays. They don't want to drive long distances. They can't go to Europe and those places because of the war. So I thought we might have the same effect. We still might, but it might be in a month or so.

Rhys: Yeah, I don't know. Because obviously when it happened, we had this stimulus come out and they were trying to help and push more money. I think they got burnt last time from the government giving that much money out, so this time they're like, "Oh, we might not do it." And it's only fuel, and fuel's kind of gone down a bit. But for us, I think it's just driving around. We're trying to be a bit more smart when we're doing quotes, trying to be smart when we're doing jobs, and not just going out there for no reason, giving them a quote and just leaving. We're trying to actually give them a reason to want to go with us. So we're not just going, "Yeah, it's going to be this price." We're actually going, "Do you want us to investigate first? Do you want us to do a couple of things before we leave?" so we're not just driving around and wasting money.

Kane: Yeah. Did you have staff throughout that COVID period?

Rhys: I think I got one just after, but no. I'd just started, pretty much. It was about March 2020 when I think we got shut down, but we were lucky in Perth with, I think, McGowan blocking the borders. We got lucky then. But no, I didn't have any. Not like yourself. I know you had a lot of guys through this.

Kane: Yeah, for us it was similar to what you just said. It was obviously scary at the start, but there was so much home renovation work going on that it was probably one of the best things that happened for our business.

Rhys: Yeah. And then we got an incentive: if your business went down 20%, you got that money. I don't think we're getting that this time.

Kane: They made a mistake on that one.

Rhys: Yeah. They probably gave out way too much money.

[04:10] Why he made his first hire

Rhys: So, no, that was good, just to get into the hang of things. I didn't really have to advertise, and then it kind of died down, and then I put some guys on. I had one start with me through just needing help for renovations, because I needed another person. And the reason I actually put him on is I was doing all these things, I had jobs lined up for a couple of weeks, and I got sick. I'm not someone that has sickies all the time. I had three days off and I just couldn't work, and I had people going, "What am I supposed to do?" So I thought from that, I actually need to get someone to cover me, and that was the main reason I got someone to come in and help me out. Just in case I couldn't physically work, or I injured myself playing soccer, I had to get someone just to cover me, go there, do this. So that was the start of getting someone, and then from there I got someone else who wanted to join because he didn't enjoy where he was before, and then it kind of went from there and I got an apprentice.

[05:14] First hire: tradie or apprentice?

Kane: The question that's come up already twice in previous podcasts is, was your first employee a tradie or an apprentice?

Rhys: He was from the UK, as a tradie. He came here and then he had to do a bridging course.

Kane: So he came in as a fourth-year apprentice?

Rhys: Kind of. So I knew exactly where he was at. And he had to spend a lot of money coming from the Commonwealth as well, from the UK. I can't remember how much he was spending. It could be up to nearly 10k.

Kane: Yeah, I think it is.

Rhys: Yeah, just to do that. And it only took him about three months to get around knowing what to do, and then he got that as a tradie. And the other guy I got was, I think, mature age, and he was about a fourth year as well. Then he got signed off with us as well.

Kane: Yeah. The reason I asked is because it's come up where a lot of people take on an apprentice as their first employee. But I think it's a bad way to go, because you're locked in. You have to go to site with them full-time. It helps you do the work, but it doesn't help you grow the business.

Rhys: No, I've spoken to a couple of guys about this and they were like, "Oh, what do I do when I get a tradie?" But I don't know. A first year is not bad if you're someone that's working all the time, because you're going to be able to train him up exactly how you want. If you get a tradesman, they're going to do things how they've been previously taught. So it depends on the guy. If you want to have a day off here and there...

Kane: That's what I was going to say. It depends if you're happy with being on the tools 38 hours a week, because obviously that's what you have to pay the apprentice, or if you're trying to grow and you want to spend that other time growing the business. That's where I think having a tradie at the start is sometimes better if you want to get off the tools, because then you can send them to jobs by themselves once you've sussed out that they're good enough.

Rhys: Yeah. So, what have we got? I think I've signed three guys off now. One from the very start, and he's pretty much just done exactly what we're doing. But the other thing is, he was a mature age apprentice. He came from a supplies background, so he already had a massive jump start on everyone. And then we've currently got another young kid. He's 19, he's going into his fourth year, and he's been with us from the start. So I think the only bad thing is I'm probably a bit too nice on the guys as well, a bit too kind.

Kane: Not like the old days.

[07:21] Lessons from two very different bosses

Rhys: No. So, coming from my background, the first company I was with, I stayed there for like seven years. I had a boss that was really good at teaching me exactly how to fix everything from the start. He was quite a firm boss. Not many people stayed if you didn't do the right thing and learn to switch on and think by yourself. And then the second company I went with was more of a business kind of company, I reckon. Sales, telling the customer, "If we can't repair it for 100, let's just replace it, and then you're going to have a guarantee that it's going to work." So I had both sides of a company, and that's helped me with my business.

Kane: So where you did your apprenticeship, how long did you stay once you qualified?

Rhys: I think two to three years. And that's what I've spoken to a lot of people about. You've got to do the right thing. You as a boss, you're really losing money for the first two years, unless you help it by getting your guys out, and then once they hit fourth year, you're really making a bit back from the damages and stuff. And then as a tradesman, you stay if you're happy. There's no point starting your own thing up if you're having a good time, because it might not work out.

Kane: I think sometimes people get excited when they qualify. That's when they start looking around. It is frustrating if you put that investment into someone for four years and then they qualify and go, "I'm going to go FIFO now."

Rhys: Yeah.

Kane: That's where you need to bring the value back.

Rhys: The thing is, what we've spoken about with FIFO is they're doing those long hours. You're probably going to make that if you spoke to your boss and said, "Listen, I want to do FIFO. Can we work something out?" We do mainly residential, but we've got a job now up north, and it's like, okay, I'll speak to the guys. Do you want to do it? I never got the chance to do the mines, but I've had people go up there and they come straight back because they don't like missing out on the weekends, which is fair enough. But if you do it for a stint and you want to earn some money, you want to do a 10-hour day... Everyone says they want to work, and then you say, "Listen, I've got a job on Saturday," and it's like... But I get it. I don't blame them. I don't do some jobs on Saturday if I don't want to do it.

Kane: What was the reason you wanted to start your own business?

Rhys: I think I was doing a lot of jobs on the side for a few friends, and it wasn't something that I was always going to do. But what happened was, when I was doing about three days a week with a company doing designing, I was sitting in a chair a lot of the day, getting a train. It was a completely different life, going from being a tradesman to an office life. It was very different.

[10:28] From plumbing to engineering and back

Rhys: And before that, I actually got a diploma in engineering as well, just to try something different. And then I was doing three days a week in an office and the other two days I was doing jobs. So I was lining up jobs with no advertising. I could do a hot water unit, I could do filters. I had all these jobs lined up which were eight-hour days, and I was obviously earning more doing that. And I remember speaking to yourself, and you were going, "I think you're mad not to just do your own thing." And then you've got other issues: how am I going to fill those other three days up? Everyone doesn't just give you jobs. These were all friends and family referrals, and I didn't have any overheads. I was like, "Oh, this is crazy." And now it's like, "Oh, hang on a minute. I've got all these overheads, insurances, I've got to find work." You've got to weigh it up.

Kane: Why did you get into the engineering thing?

Rhys: I wanted to do something different. I remember at TAFE, when I was doing the contractor's course, I was doing the drawings and I was quite enjoying it, and I was like, this could be something different. What ended up happening is I went into the office, and this was before COVID. I had great guys that I worked with. I actually enjoyed working. I just wanted something different. If I didn't do that, it'd always be in the back of my head, "Oh, I wonder what it would have been like being in an office job." And I tried it and I was like, "Yeah, it's going to be hard to sit in a chair for probably 10, 15 years to get that knowledge before I can advance from there." You really had to do that for 10 years, 15 years.

Kane: So how did you get your diploma?

Rhys: So after I left my boss as a tradesman, I went on holidays, had a bit of a gap year, and then from there I decided, okay, what am I going to do when I go back? I have to really use my plumbing knowledge. I'll try and do hydraulic design, which is drawings and everything, still to do with plumbing, but you still have engineering. So I had to do a course, which was a Diploma of Civil and Structural Engineering. I did that for a whole year. It was different again, because I was going to class, learning how to do physics, and I didn't really put my hand up for physics class at school, so I had to do a lot of learning again, back to school. And then from there I found a job, saying I had that diploma. He said, "Oh, you don't really need it," but it was obviously good, because I had to use AutoCAD and everything like that. And then when I left there and started my own thing, that's when COVID happened. So it's just something different.

Kane: That AutoCAD you mentioned, that's the drawing software?

Rhys: Yeah, computer software to do the drawings.

Kane: Yeah, okay.

Rhys: Yeah. So I did that, and then there was another one called Revit. And at the time, my boss wanted to put me onto full-time work. And that's when I was like, "Oh, actually, before you do that... You've been really helpful. I might come back." But I think a lot of the guys kind of knew that was going to happen with me. And that's the biggest issue there. They said they have a lot of people that come through, and it's very difficult to stay in a chair, because I was a tradie. I was trying to get all my work done really quick, and the one guy would have six coffees next to me. He'd go, "Have a coffee, have a coffee." I'm like, "I just want to get my work done." "Mate, you need to relax. You need to chill. This is a two-month job you've got to do. You're not going to be able to get it done in a day."

[13:38] Nine staff and hiring an admin

Kane: So how does that work with you now then? How many people do you have right now?

Rhys: I think there's nine on the books. Yeah.

Kane: And are you not in the office full-time then?

Rhys: I try not to be. I probably should be, maybe 70%. I could be in 100, but again, I like to be out on the jobs. So we've got an admin girl. She does a lot of the stuff that I was covering before, and it gives me the chance to go out with the guys and have a bit of competition to see who's the best.

Kane: So that admin person you just hired, that was a new hire?

Rhys: Yeah. So I had my sister doing it, and she's got three kids, so it got a bit hard for her. And then I was like, I'll be able to do it. I got a couple of AI apps in place. I was like, I'll be able to do it. But no, it was pretty much suicide for me, trying to answer the guys' calls, trying to still go out and do jobs, trying to do quotes. So when I got her in, she'd already had experience doing that before, so it was very easy for her to go into. And now it's just a matter of me training the guys up, doing a lot of automation now, trying to get everything in place. But I still like going on the jobs as well. Don't want to lose my touch.

Kane: Yeah. Blow out the cobwebs.

Rhys: Yeah.

[14:42] Finding and keeping good tradies

Kane: So the topic you wanted to talk about today is staff, finding good tradies or staff in general and keeping them. What's your advice for that?

Rhys: I think the biggest thing that I always think is, with guys, everyone's good at different things. Not one person's going to be the jack of all trades and be the master at everything. Everyone's good in their own way. It's the same as me. I know you're a very organised guy, very structured. You'll go to the gym every time, where I'm like, "Oh yeah, I want to do a job today. I want to go and do this job. I want to float around and do a few different things," where yourself, you're very structured. So we might have someone that's very good at going to the job, speaking to the client, trying to push him into that thing. Now, that guy's not that good at, I don't know, doing drains and digging holes. He's not going to like that. He might not enjoy it.

Rhys: So I've got one guy that's still with us now, and it's a funny story. He wanted to get back into plumbing. He was a plumber in the UK. He came to us and said, "Listen, I want to do plumbing again. I've seen you guys did a job at my house. Would you consider it?" Yeah, come in, have a week with us. I had a torrid week planned. It was a hard week. He went with one of the guys and it was hectic. And at the end he's like, "Listen, I don't know if I can do this." And I was like, "Listen, bear with me. Stay. I'm telling you right now, that was just a really hard week. I'll be genuinely honest. But if you do another week and it's like that, I don't blame you." Anyway, he's still with us now, and he's done over a year, I think maybe a year and a half, two years.

Kane: So he's seen the worst at the start.

Rhys: Well, that's it. A lot of the time you've just got to be honest with the guys. If they don't enjoy it, you say, well, that's just how it is, and unfortunately you have to go your separate ways. But I think the guys that have left us have only gone to do their own thing. They've not gone to another company. Everyone's tailored to what they're good at. And if they're not enjoying it, I'm open for them to come and talk to me and say, "Listen, I'm not enjoying this. I want to do this." And then we can work out a way, and I'll just be honest: well, this has to be like this. We can't not do that, and it's just up to you.

Rhys: And it's been fair as well. If one guy's got a really busy two days, he's not just going to get smashed while the other guy... Everyone's good, but if he goes, "Oh, well, he's doing that," it's like, hang on a minute, you don't do your paperwork, you don't do that, and he's doing all these checklists. That's why it's easier for me, whatever job makes my life easier. But if there's a job that's very hard digging, or it's very complicated, I'm the first one. If I don't think they can do it, I'll go there 100%. I'll figure it out with you. Let's just work together and get it done. So it's not like I'm throwing them in the deep end. Even though they are tradesmen, at the same time I'm still learning as well.

Kane: Yeah. So will you try and keep people doing the things that they're good at, or that they prefer doing? Is that what keeps them with you for a long period of time?

Rhys: I don't know. I'd probably have to ask them. I've probably not asked them that question before. But I would say you can get a feeling when they talk to you at the end of the day, and you can sus it out. If it's a hard job and they've done well, then I'll probably say, "Listen, good stuff, well done." If they make mistakes, okay, why are they making mistakes? Is that because I'm pushing them too hard? Am I drilling them? And at the same time, it's give and take. If they've been working really late one night, I don't mind saying, "Listen, do you want to have a bit of the morning off?" It's the same as when we're doing our own thing. If you're getting drilled, it's like, "Okay, I'm going to work Saturday morning, I'll do a hard day, I might have Thursday morning off." I just ask the same question of them, and treat them how I would like to be treated as well.

Kane: Make it flexible.

Rhys: Yeah, make it flexible. But I know for some businesses it's going to be hard. I'm still probably hands-on, where I know it's hard for other people that have a lot more people. They don't really have the time to do that, so it's up to their managers, where I'm personally in there. Sometimes I probably get a bit too nice, but at the same time, you put more effort into them, and the longer they stay, it ends up just being a lot easier.

Kane: It is a fine line between being too nice or being too mean. That line in the middle is quite hard to balance on, because you have to keep them happy. They know they can walk out and walk into another job for the same pay somewhere else, more than likely, because there is still such a trade shortage.

Rhys: Yeah, exactly. And I've said to the guys, if they're really not happy, it's not jail, it's not school. You can leave. But at the same time, you just hope they talk to you.

Kane: Yeah.

Rhys: And say... yeah, if they're good. But sometimes I have said, "Do you want me to scream? Am I going to get a reaction if I get angry?" That's not me. I don't want to do that. I just want to be very fair. But you and I have both been doing it for that long. And I said to them, there's no job that they're doing that I haven't done. I know roughly exactly how long it takes. But if you've got a week where every client and everything's going wrong, well, there's something not right. Do you need the skills? What on this piece of paper can you do?

Rhys: So I think the biggest thing that I'm trying to do with the apprentice now is have a list of everything we do, and if you're unsure of something, highlight it. We'll have you go with one of the tradies and they'll teach you. But don't say you know how to do it, and then get to the job and go, "Oh, actually, I wasn't really watching him." I know I was paranoid when I was doing my apprenticeship. I didn't even want to have holidays. I don't know what you were like, but I didn't even want holidays, because I was scared I was going to miss something.

[20:59] Seek versus referrals

Kane: And how do you get staff? Do you use Seek or other platforms?

Rhys: I know you were telling me about Seek, but it's pretty expensive, and it's hard. I think, from speaking to people, referrals would probably be the best. You'd probably know, from speaking to other people. I've put a couple of flyers out. It is difficult.

Kane: So you never had to use Seek?

Rhys: Once, and I never picked someone from it.

Kane: Yeah, right. It's a hard one. That's what I always say, some of our best staff have come from referrals.

Rhys: I know. I knew that was sort of how you got yours as well. Yeah. Well, we've had a couple of people that have come and I've had to train them. I think people expect them to come in and just be... is it like a lottery? You need to be able to teach them your way, because it's the same thing if you come in, "Oh, this is how we're going to do it." As long as you know how to half figure stuff out. If you're a tradesman, if you're an apprentice, okay, what level are you at? Go with me, go with one of the guys. Then come back to me and go... Yeah, listen, tell me the worst thing off the bat. Don't say, "Oh yeah, I'm fine." Tell me, "I don't know how to do this, I don't know how to do this, but I'm really good at that." And that's fine. We'll teach you that.

Kane: Yeah, I think a lot of it comes down to attitude, and I think what you just said is a good point. It's so hard when people come into the interview and say, "Yeah, I can do that. I can do this. I can do that." Then you put them with someone for a week or so to learn your systems, and then they get put on that job and they're like, "Oh, I've never done a hot water system before."

Rhys: Yeah.

Kane: You said you could do everything. Just be honest. You've got to be honest, because people are happy to train. We do it all the time. If someone comes to us as an electrician and they haven't done a switch before, we'll make sure we put them with a tradie who's done them, do five or six, go through the testing process. We need to make sure they're good enough, and we're willing to put the time into people to train them, because it's hard to get staff.

Rhys: Yeah, I know. I think when you're first getting someone new as well, you're not throwing heaps of stuff at them. You're just like, "Okay, can you do this?" And you're walking on eggshells as well. I'm checking the photos. Have they done the right thing? Have they spoken to the customer right? Have they made no mistakes? Then you're just covering their time, and eventually, after a couple of weeks, okay, can they actually start making a bit of money?

Rhys: And I always say to the guys, if you're really good at doing everything, well, then you're going to be on a few jobs, float around and do everything, and you're going to be on harder jobs, but maybe with an apprentice. Now, if you're just doing the standard stuff, you really need to be able to do the standard stuff before you go up to the next level. If you're good at doing that and the other guys are coming in and trying to learn, well, they're going to go on the standard jobs, which could be anything, hot water systems, filters, the general stuff, and then you move them up to the renovations and have someone with them. But you need to be able to do the foundations first and then move up from there. It's just a judge of character. As a boss, I need to know who's good at what. And that's the hard thing for me, moving on from scheduling jobs and getting someone else to do it. It's like, "Oh, actually, he's good at..." That's when you need to train them up from there. So it is all about training.

[24:05] Pay rises, tiers and incentives

Kane: I was going to say something. Yeah, I know we spoke a lot about that, and with you saying you've got someone that's at the foundations level, but then they've asked for a pay rise?

Rhys: That's where we've spoken a lot about, well, you need to become a tier two or a tier three. Do those things other people can't do, and that's how you can earn money. Literally giving a pay rise is actually good, sweet. I'm happy to. I want to do that, because I don't want you to leave and get annoyed. But at the same time, it's a lot of work. When we were younger, it was just hourly rate, that's it, and you'd be doing 40 hours, and you'd probably be doing 43 and only getting paid for 40, sometimes at the start. Now it's all moved into percentages, and you're getting paid, but then you're also getting a bonus for just doing your job, which is just how it is now. And I don't mind it. You're getting an incentive.

Rhys: So we're trying to push incentives now. If you do a better job, you've got an incentive to do a good job, do it quicker, be neat, be tidy, don't have mistakes. And then that's up to them to do that. It's not just, "Oh, I want a pay rise." It's like, yeah, I'm happy to do it, but can you do these things? You're still doing the foundations jobs. If you can do everything well, then yeah. I've naturally given rises, pay rises and stuff like that, without them even asking, because I'm like, you're doing really well. But yeah, the bonuses.

Kane: Do you feel like the incentives make a difference for them? Do you think they appreciate the fact they can earn that extra bit of money?

Rhys: I kind of go off how I would like it. When I was younger, I was still young doing it, and my thing was building myself up. Can I do it? If I couldn't do something, I was always kind of annoyed at myself that I couldn't do it, and I didn't want to be someone to get caught out with other people. If I went to a site and there were other plumbers there, you want to be on the same playing field as them, not like, "Not too sure, actually." So I've always been like that. And then the incentives and the bonus are just more appreciation for doing your job well. Not every job's going to go right. We know that. But when it does go right, at least you're going, "Ah, sick, that went right," and I've got an incentive bonus as well. And at the same time, I'm helping the company. If you have a really good day one day, the next day might be very average, but they always go, "Oh yeah, but that day I did really well." It's like, well, all you're doing is that money's just gone into the other job, and now it balances out, so we're still even.

Kane: Yeah. And obviously when you look at the figures at the end of the year and the end of the week, you can kind of gather that. So if they've done two or three really good days, and then we're quiet Thursday, Friday, it's like, okay, they still get paid their pay anyway.

Rhys: Yeah, you're still getting paid. And that's where it's like, okay, downtime, we try and clean the vans out, get everything ready, stock take, do all those things. So when you go to a job, it's going to make your life easier. Because every time you start the week... I don't think you've ever had a messy van. For me, I'd want to get my job done, and then I'd maybe put that bit of rubbish in a pile. But if you get into a cleaner van at the start of the week, it's going to make your day go a lot smoother. And at the same time, it's teaching the apprentices. This is what I'm trying to teach you guys. This is how I work quicker, having the right stuff on there. And then you're going to enjoy your job as well, not just have everything everywhere. A lot of the stuff now... I remember simPRO and ServiceM8 weren't around when we were apprentices. I don't know, was it simPRO when you were?

Kane: I think we used one that the company custom built, but my apprenticeship was done with paper.

Rhys: Yeah.

Kane: Paper, like that. Write it down.

Rhys: I know when we first started, I had paper as well, and then it went to that.

Kane: Does that mean we're old? [laughter]

Rhys: I don't know. Come up with technology.

Kane: Yeah.

[28:13] Would he ever go back to working for someone?

Kane: Do you ever have days where you think it'd just be easy to go and work for a business again?

Rhys: Yeah.

Kane: Holidays.

Rhys: The holidays. Holidays, weekends. Yeah, I still do work on the weekends. I think I've had maybe a week and a half off in the last few years, and my missus kills me. So that's the other thing. I'm always kind of stressing when I'm not there, because I'm like, is everything going all right? Someone's calling me. But yeah, 100%. If I was at a company like myself, I reckon I probably would, because I'd be like, just be honest, do my thing and go home. As a business owner, you can't really go and start buying heaps of stuff and maxing stuff out, because you're like, what happens if stuff goes sideways? Perfect example, the war going on right now. What happens if the government...

Kane: You can lose a lot of money very fast, with overheads.

Rhys: Yeah, exactly. So that's one thing, the holidays. And as soon as you go home, it's like... public holidays as well. I don't even enjoy public holidays anymore.

Kane: Terrible for business.

Rhys: I know. We've got another one on Monday. Are you serious? I used to enjoy it. When those came, it was the best feeling ever. Now it's just another day. That's one thing that I know. But 100%, I would definitely consider it.

[29:14] Advice to his younger self

Kane: If you were starting out again, what advice would you give yourself?

Rhys: I think at the start, building a foundation early. Because obviously I was just doing, like I was saying, side hustles at the start. I think you were probably better than me. I was kind of like, "Oh, I might not be doing this for that long," and then I just chose a name out of thin air. I think I was playing a game, and then I chose a logo, a $50 logo. I just was like, "Oh, I just need to get something going." Whereas I wish I'd known, "I'm doing this for three years. Get my accountant in, get my receipts, get everything in order, and build from there." I'm obviously set up now with everything, but before it was just a lot of stuff, which some businesses are going to do. You're going to be like, "I need to be working," and then after hours on a Saturday I'm going to have to sort stuff out. But I think being organised at the start, with everything set up beforehand.

Kane: So some of the basic systems at the start would be...

Rhys: Basic systems at the start. Yeah. And, this is how we're doing it. Automation. When you're doing it yourself, I'll just do sticky notes and stuff like that, and write on a piece of paper. But I wish I was a bit more organised, like, "No, this is how," and then adding stuff towards that.

Kane: Was it a hard transition when you did start to add those systems in?

Rhys: Well, I think ServiceM8 and the systems came in when the first employee was actually going by himself, so I could go back to jobs and check those ones. But yeah, a bit messy. Maybe it took a bit of time training the guys.

Kane: Yeah, I think that was the same with me. I definitely had books, the old school books with carbon copy. I definitely had them for a fair while, but when I took on the first couple of apprentices, I'm pretty sure that's when I started using ServiceM8 as well.

Rhys: Yes.

Kane: And I looked at loads of different CRMs, and it seemed like it was the easiest one to use, and we still use it now. I don't know, do you use the same?

Rhys: ServiceM8, yeah. There's a few different subscriptions, which raises overheads, but hopefully it causes less stress. It's not just helping you now. It's more helping if you get stuff come up from the past. Using your Xero, using your ServiceM8, doing all that stuff, just in case you get caught later down the track, like, "Oh, you guys did this." You've got all that stuff organised with your foundations, and you can go, "Oh yeah, we actually did this replacement, we did that part." Which is pretty basic stuff, I would think, that you kind of need to have in order. I don't know, not everyone does.

Kane: No, it is important, even for compliance. If you were to get audited by the ATO, at least now everything's in Xero.

Rhys: Yeah. Yeah.

Kane: And that's probably a thing that I do hear. Some people go, "I'm doing that myself," or, "I don't need it." I'm like, what happens if...? It's like an insurance policy really.

Rhys: Yeah.

[32:20] What nobody teaches you about tax and insurance

Rhys: Yeah. Having the insurances for the guys and stuff like that, it's a lot of stuff you have to do, which no one really taught me. I remember, I think I was speaking to yourself when I started off and paid my BAS. I was like, these are expensive. And then I came to the end of the year, and it's like, "Okay, so here's your income tax." I was like, "What is this? I just paid it." No, this is on top. And obviously I was in my early 20s, I was like, "Yeah, right." And now I'm like, no one told me that. No one told me about the insurances, the workers' comp. I just thought the government pays. It's crazy.

Kane: But yeah. You learn that stuff at TAFE?

Rhys: Nah.

Kane: Or your contractor's course?

Rhys: No.

Kane: Exactly. Where are you supposed to learn?

Rhys: I know. How are you supposed to know what you're supposed to do on the job, like JSAs and stuff, if you haven't done it before? There's so many little things that you're like, "Oh, what?" I might say income tax, someone else might say BAS, someone else might say, I don't know, insurance. And I know that's what you're trying to help a lot of people out with.

Kane: Yeah, exactly that. There's so many things. Even with insurance, there's workers' compensation, public liability, there's management liability.

Rhys: Yeah.

Kane: Office insurance, contents insurance for the vehicles. Not just the vehicles themselves, but the contents inside the vehicles, because you need to ensure the guys' tools are covered as well.

Rhys: And that's probably one thing... I don't know if that's why you started doing things. I remember asking you, because you were obviously three years ahead of me. It was always, "Oh, have you done that?" You always have to ask someone. So we don't really know. I would say we started youngish then. Well, you were doing a lot of stuff when you were younger as well, but I don't know.

Kane: I think that's where a lot of people do start.

Rhys: Yeah. Young.

Kane: Yeah. I think a lot of people do start when they are quite young, and I get questions now from people that are so far along in business, and it's like, have you not been doing that already? But it's like, well, no one tells you. No one tells you until either you get caught, you get in trouble, or you have a conversation randomly and it comes up, like, "Oh, long service leave," things like that. "Oh no, you've got to call them and register yourself, so then you can start paying it, and it's a legal requirement."

Rhys: And even the accountant, when you speak to them. With bookkeeping, I remember I was doing all my bookkeeping, and then I had a bookkeeper as well, and then an accountant. And the accountant, I was like, "Yeah, yeah, I'll do it." He's like, "Well, why are you getting the bookkeeper to do that?" And I was like, "I don't know." I enjoy doing that, but imagine some people that don't want to do that. The accountant is not going to tell you. I don't know if people think, "Oh, the accountant will just tell me what I've got to do." No, he's just doing his own thing. He's just making sure your BAS is done. You still have to pay it. And there's tons of things like that. And I think it's five years now. Five years, and I've only just got to that point. "Oh, okay." And I'm still learning stuff to do with employees and going bigger. But no one really tells you that unless you have someone older, and I didn't have any family in business. My dad worked for a company. He's been working for a company for 50 years. 50 years.

Kane: Yeah. That's not trades, is it?

Rhys: No. He was a mechanic, and then he's...

Kane: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Rhys: And now he's a manager. But he was there for 50 years, and he seems really relaxed, being at the company for that long, and he has his holidays and stuff like that. But he's had a good boss. He always says he's had a very good boss, and that's why he stayed. That's quite big there. Everyone stays there.

Kane: Can you share a specific moment when you realised you'd made the right decision? Or have you made it?

Rhys: I'll get back to you. Yeah. And I think, I always treat the company like I've still got a boss.

Kane: Who's your boss?

Rhys: The guy upstairs. You know what I mean? I still make sure I try to get to jobs at 7:30. I still treat it like someone's going to call me up and go, "Bro, what's going on?" I still think in my head that I've got a boss above me. I'm calling the shots, but he's above me. So I'm still in that mode, like I've got to be there. I'm not just switching off, like, "Oh, yeah, it's all good." Obviously with money, if you're not doing the right thing, you're going to lose it. You're going to be the first one that loses the money. But I always try and treat it like I'm still working for someone.

Kane: Without the holidays. [laughter] That's an interesting perspective.

[36:32] Customer service and quoting protocols

Kane: How do you go with customer service and customer experience? What does that mean to you?

Rhys: I try. I've always been too nice sometimes. At the very start, I was trying to do favours for everyone, and it's kind of burnt me in the past. Now I'm just trying to have a protocol. This is our protocol. I've had this guy here, and it's like, unfortunately, this is our protocol. This is what we have to do. So we have to go and investigate. If we go to a job and they want a quote, okay, you want a quote. Cool. Can you tell me what's going on? "What do you mean? I want a quote. I just want to know what's going on." Well, I don't know what's going on, unless it's like, "I want that tap here."

Kane: It's more like fault finding.

Rhys: Fault finding, and that's it. So now we're saying, no, we need to investigate, I need to be able to do that, and we'll waive that fee. A lot of the time we were quoting off blind and then getting burnt from there. And it's not like, "Oh, they're just trying to catch us off guard." No, we're too fair. And yes, there's other companies out there that might do the wrong thing, and that puts a bad look on plumbers, but unfortunately that's just our fundamentals. Yes, we have to do it.

Rhys: We'll look at repeat customers, and yeah, we will do massive favours for them. We've had a client who's done so much work with us call me at 6:00 on a Friday night, or maybe a Thursday night, and I just went out there and did it. They're just little things that we can do. We maybe can't do it for everyone, but I can go to sleep at night and feel really good. I'm not lying there thinking about what I've done. Actually, maybe a job's gone too well, and then they've paid the invoice, and I'm like, actually, I've got to ring them up and say something to them. "Listen, the next one, we were quicker." "No, no, it's fine. That's what you quoted us." And that's the kind of customers we want to deal with as well. We're not trying to reach out to everyone. We want to be your plumber, if you want to work with us. And with a lot of people now, it's, do you trust us? They might not trust us on the first one, but by the second or third, they're like, "Whoever's there, don't worry." And that comes from having the same guys there for a while. They can see the same familiar face coming there and stuff like that.

Kane: So is the customer always right? I think that's a retail thing, isn't it?

Rhys: That's what I try and tell the guys. Yes, the customer, that is their house. I treat it as if that's my house. If this was my house, this is how I would do it. And if the client's saying something, I try and tell the guys, if you're there, you've got to remember they're not a plumber. They want something, and you've got to tell them every bad outcome that can happen. Yes, we're drilling into this, we're doing this, this can happen. The amount of inclusions and extras and variations that we have to write in on some stuff is to the point...

Kane: That's a good point, and it came up yesterday in a conversation I had with someone. Clients don't know what is and isn't included. For example, what we were talking about is a burst pipe under paving. As a plumber, you know that you've got to remove the pavers, dig up the ground, repair the pipe, fill the ground back in, and relay the paving. That's where we were talking about how the client doesn't know. The client's just going to assume the job's going to be fixed and it's going to be left as is. But as the tradie, they need to explain, "Hey, I'm not a paver." Obviously some people work differently. "I can lay it to the best of my ability, or I can neatly pile them to the side. I'll fill it up so it's not a hazard, and you're going to have to get someone to come in after and lay it properly." But customers don't know and understand.

Rhys: Yeah. As far as I got taught, you take a couple of pavers up, you put them back, and just say, "Listen, I'm a plumber." You can still put pavers back. But I think it gets to the point... We had one yesterday, and it was in a driveway for a strata. It's like, okay, I'm probably going to say I'm going to get a professional paver in, just to cover us. We can make sure it's safe so they can still drive on it, but I've got a paver that I use, and he's really good, and he will go out there and do it. He just does that as a side company. That's just to protect ourselves and make sure it's safe. If one of the guys does it, and then there's all these cars driving over it, and we've dug a hole and it's not compacted... Other trades are going to argue, but I reckon we've got so many tools that we have to have that we're not going to be able to have compacting tools on the car, stuff like that, unless you want us to hire more stuff. How far do you want to go to do it?

Kane: Plumbing definitely does have one of the highest amounts of tools. Obviously electrical, we don't really.

Rhys: Yeah. Well, you've got...

Kane: Carpenters have loads, but plumbers, it's a phenomenal amount of stuff.

[41:47] The cost of a plumber's tools

Rhys: The other thing with carpenters is, most of our jobs, I'd say on average, are maybe three-hour jobs. So we've got to be able to go to each job with everything. I don't know, I'd have to speak to a carpenter, but the majority of their jobs, they're on a site all day.

Kane: Yeah.

Rhys: So you're taking it to one site, you're taking it all off, and it's going back. We're constantly taking that stuff in and out.

Kane: Drain machines.

Rhys: Oh, yeah. Big, heavy. Or you've got a specific guy that just does drain machines, because again...

Kane: For that reason, for the equipment.

Rhys: Cameras. Camera, jetter, coil machine for cutting roots, mini machine for clearing grease. You've got six machines on there.

Kane: What value?

Rhys: I was going to say, if I got hit by a truck, it'd probably be over 100k, with the car.

Kane: Right, yeah. It's a big investment, hey.

Rhys: Yeah. And that's the other thing. We've got to put 98 fuel in the jetter. Premium. That's what I know people don't see, but we have to do the job correctly, and these are your tools. This is the best thing, so we can offer that service to get it done. I never had a jetter when I was growing up as an apprentice. I just had a coil machine that cleared everything. Now it's like, okay, this is easier. That's a luxury, having a jetter.

Kane: I think we spoke about this before. I think jetters only came out since we've started our own businesses. The high pressure water jetter.

Rhys: Yeah. They weren't as good, and there probably weren't people selling them properly. And I didn't have anyone to teach me. I had to figure it out. Obviously I had to do the course to know how to do it, but they weren't doing residential. They were doing Water Corp mains. So I was hopping in the park, and they're like, yeah, two people. I'm like, well, I'm never going to be able to do that on a residential site. So having that is really good. It makes all the difference. But again, I taught myself how to do that, and then I taught the next guy, and he taught the next guy, and that guy taught the next guy.

Kane: Yeah.

[43:53] Growth, advertising and social media

Kane: How big do you want to grow your business?

Rhys: I just really enjoy it. Trying to build foundations at the moment and then go from there. But I'm kind of happy where we are. We've got six vehicles. Yeah, six vehicles.

Kane: Do you do much advertising?

Rhys: Yeah, kind of, a bit. The majority is the website with Google, little booklets. A lot of people refer us, repeat customers, and we try online and stuff like that. So a bit of everything, really.

Kane: Do you do much on social media?

Rhys: Not really. Not as much as I should. Probably need to do a bit more. We should just show our faces and our photos and stuff like that.

Kane: Yeah. Okay.

Rhys: Yeah.

Kane: Where can people find you if they want to look you up?

Rhys: Google, Facebook. Yeah.

Kane: Oceania Plumbing and Gas.

Rhys: Yeah, Oceania Plumbing and Gas. We're in Clarkson, so we've got an office there. But we pretty much float around the northern suburbs.

Kane: That's come up a bit for us with the coaching clients. Social media, I know it's obviously been around for a while, but I think it's extremely important.

Rhys: Oh yeah.

Kane: For example, a carpenter that I know of, he's starting to do, again, carpentry. It's bigger jobs, a little bit different to what you're doing, but he's doing a three-stage video: at the start of the job, midway through and after. And he's got heaps of followers, just more eyes on his work, and this is a pretty fresh account. He's also mentioned before, and this was commercial, again a little bit different, but they were looking for a carpenter. They'd already spoken to him. They were deciding between who they were going to use, and they decided to look through social media to try and find something. And I think he said the competitors didn't have anything, whereas he had some videos, and it has his face on there, so he's the face of the company. He's obviously got some followers there. So I think it is becoming important.

Rhys: Oh yeah. I think we were talking the other day, and you were saying you like the videos where they have the camera and they do the quick...

Kane: Yeah, the POV videos.

Rhys: Yeah. So I think that's something we're definitely going to have to do. We do have a lot of videos. I try not to just post toilet stuff, you know what I mean? Even though, I'm like, I don't want to be seeing that. I can respect a few other things that I see, like carpentry and electrical and plumbing, but I try and have proper variety. I know a lot of people want to see bathroom renos. That's a big thing. So a lot of the time we're more concentrating on getting it done properly, and then I'm like, "Oh, I should have actually taken a before and after photo." But I'm more stressing out about, okay, I need to make sure that's neat. Tell the customer. They need to have everything written out. So by the time I do that and the job's done, I'm like, "Oh yeah, I should have." I try and tell the guys to take photos before and after. Yes, it does happen. And then sometimes it's a photo that's just really close up, and not a far back photo.

Kane: But we did actually finish one the other day, and they had a drop sheet on the ground, and we just said, "Hey AI, can you just remove that drop sheet for us and put some mirrors up?" And it just did it. Two mirrors, and it removed the drop sheet.

Rhys: That's what's going to be a bit interesting about social media. Is that actually their job, you know?

Kane: That's a good point. They could probably edit videos as well, but I think that's where videos are very good, especially if you're filming yourself, or someone's filming you or your tradie, and they're doing the work.

Rhys: Yeah, having that actual guy. You can still sus out if it is AI, but it's moving that quick. Just typing in, "Hey, I need a little video for this," and then it just does it.

Kane: We've only just started doing our social media for Hypotential, the business coaching, and it definitely takes time, but I think it's just getting the reps in, having it consistent. Facebook, Instagram, TikTok. I'd never used it, only just...

Rhys: I think I was the one who told you TikTok was pretty funny.

Kane: And now, I don't normally use it myself, but you start scrolling, and the ones that I find addictive to watch are the...

Rhys: I think it's people using those Meta glasses.

Kane: Yeah, it's the POV. Have you got some?

Rhys: Yeah. Well, one of the guys has them, but again, it's not for jobs. It's like, my Uber Eats guy is coming to drop food off to me, and I'm filming him getting out of the car. And then, yeah, he's got a video. We want to post it, but I was like, I kind of need to get a couple of professional photos before we start doing these funny videos. But there's even a... I don't think I've sent it to you, but there's a guy that did a TikTok video in the UK. All he did was, he's like, "Oh, I'm just going to film one of the guys making their lunch for today." And he's got this old van, there's three of them that sit in there, I don't know what the name is, and they've just got a pan, and he cooks, and he just gets a Stanley knife out of the job and he's cutting onions, and he just makes these videos. But that video went that viral, and now he's like...

Kane: Yeah, a video every day of them just making lunch.

Rhys: It's just from something like that. No one's ever done it. Obviously you're going to get a few funny ones. But there's a few plumbers that I've seen where they have the same client they go back to, and people are just writing on there, "Can you go back to that guy's house?" And he's trying to be a plumber, and he crawls underneath the house and he's trying to follow and do the job.

Kane: Yeah, I think you just need that one viral video. But yeah, just more eyes on the business. Because for us, it's always been heavy Google ads, Google paid advertising. Now for us, it's definitely pushing our branding more, trying to get repeat clients more often, referrals as well, because it is hard to get people to refer you. People don't always go and talk about their plumbing work or whatever.

[49:06] Trust, referrals and getting quotes

Rhys: Yeah, 100%. We try and have the guys really based around a certain area, so if someone does call, we can get there that day. Same as yourself. "Oh yeah, I've got a burst pipe." "Oh yeah, we can't get there till tomorrow, no worries." No, I need it now. I get that, which is fine. "I've got a blocked drain." So you're going to get people that are very much, "Oh my God, thank you so much for coming," but then, "Oh, is it that much?" Well, hang on a minute. We have to be ready for you to call. Okay, that's fine, if you really think that, but that's just the price, unfortunately, and we're going to do the job. And if we tell you something, yep, you're going to be fine. We're going to come back there. We're not going anywhere. The amount of stories everyone hears about Gumtree, people coming in for the cheapest quote. We have so many conversations about stuff like that.

Kane: Yeah, one came up yesterday about Airtasker. The lady was telling me she had someone out to do something outside, I can't remember if it was paving or something, and she went around and locked all her doors because she was so unsure about this person. And again, it comes down to, you do have to pay for a good service. And I think you have to do your research and find them on either Google or social media, and at least put a face to the name or something.

Rhys: You've got to trust them as well. I went and got blinds at my house. I'm doing the same thing that everyone else does. I don't have a secret. I've got a couple of mates that do a couple of different trades, and then there's people that I don't know. Okay, are they online? If they do social media... But unless you're looking for blinds for two months, your algorithm's not going to change, and then maybe you see all these videos come up. But out of the blue, I was like, okay, they've got a load of Google reviews, they've got photos. Okay, cool. They come over, they're professional. You just have to trust them. So you might get two quotes, when some people get above five, six. You're like, come on. Albanese needs to go on and say to people, "Listen, if you're going to get quotes, let's just limit them down to this." Not like, "Yeah, just take your roof racks off." No, think about us. I understand people have been burnt before as well, so I get that. But just call up and maybe be honest with people and just see. But if people get referred to us, that's probably the one thing. "I've had these guys out before, they're really good."

Kane: I was going to say to you, when you do look for people, the same with us, we always ask for referrals. Even if it's stuff for our business, whether it's an accountant or something like that, or even if we need something done here, we will always try and get referrals, for that reason. If they trust them, then I've got more chance of trusting them.

Rhys: Yeah. When people need emergencies, they will probably use Google, just go straight on there. "I need someone now." But we both know how much that costs, to pay for that and then get someone out there. 150, I know, depending... with plumbing and electrical it's probably the highest. So if we're just going out to do a quote, the business just lost that. Which is fine. People are subject to having a free quote for a renovation, a bathroom renovation that's over five grand. Yeah, fair enough.

Kane: Yeah, I think for the high value jobs, they're going to get multiple quotes, which is absolutely fair enough.

Rhys: Yeah.

Kane: And again, sometimes if you're more expensive than someone else, if you've got that branding there and the reviews and they trust you more, a lot of people will pay the higher price for someone they trust.

Rhys: Yeah. Like outdoor blinds, inside blinds and stuff like that. I think I got two quotes when I did it, and then I think I might have spoken to you, or spoken to a mate. "Oh yeah, I've actually used them before." Sweet. I chose them, even though I think their price was pretty much the same. But again, I think you've touched on this in one of your videos. One of them took a lot longer to get the quote in, and the other one was quicker. They got the quote in, unless it's a really complicated job. They got the quote to me quicker, and then they installed it, and then they had a bit of an issue where their installer came out and was putting a black blind in a black room... and I was like, "That's not the right one." He's like, "Yeah, it is." I'm like, "No, I'm the owner. It needs to be black. Just ring him up. I don't want you installing it and then ripping it back out." And yeah, they did the wrong one. So that's what I want from that one. But yeah, you have to get quotes.

[53:16] Google reviews and handling bad ones

Kane: What's your Google rating?

Rhys: I think it dropped down to 4.9 from, I think, a review meant for another company as well. They must have used another company, and it went down to 4.9. So I think it was at five, at 700.

Kane: 700 reviews?

Rhys: Yeah.

Kane: Yeah, it's a good amount, hey.

Rhys: But yeah.

Kane: It does make a difference. Even though you can't measure it exactly, I guarantee you that makes a huge difference to your conversion rate, just people coming to you.

Rhys: I've had people leave bad ones, and I've just called them up going, "Yeah, sorry, what's the issue?" "Oh, you guys did this." And it's from the plumber being blatantly honest: "No, I have to do this. This is not right. Your drains are sagging. We have to jet it. We can't just put a machine up for 200 bucks." That's fine, but it would block again. And then after me speaking to them, they're like, "Okay, fair enough." We had another one that gave us a bad review that's still on there. She was an owner. We went out to the tenant's place. The tenant asked us to do another job. We said, "No, unfortunately, we'll have to get approval." The owner didn't answer their phone. She gave us a two-star review because we didn't just do it.

Kane: The tenant?

Rhys: No, the owner. So we were like, "But we need to get approval from you." "Oh, I've used you guys before." "Yeah, no, you've used us before." And it's like, oh, you can't win sometimes. And if there's a bad one, I'll just ring them up and go, "Yeah, sorry, this is why we had to do it." They might not like it. Okay, it was a $1,000 job. Unfortunately, we've had to dig up this bigger section of pipe, and they're just hating on us for it. But it's like, no, we're trying to do the right thing. You have to do that. But yeah, I don't think we've got any on there for stupid prices or because we've yelled at someone or something like that.

Kane: I think it's important calling them, because sometimes customers don't want to bring up issues with you or the tradie on site, because they feel it's awkward.

Rhys: Yeah.

Kane: So sometimes, if a job doesn't go perfect, they're unsure. They might speak to a friend, and someone says, "Oh no, that's terrible," even though they might not know the whole story. "Yeah, I'm going to do a review." They might get wound up. For us, same as you, we call every single one, if we can find out who it is. "Hey, we just saw your review online. Do you mind telling us what your issues are?" Obviously we will try and do what we can to rectify the issues, and more often than not, they will remove it or update their review, because, "Oh, I didn't realise. You should come out and do that for me."

Rhys: Yeah. And I think we're not McDonald's and Nvidia. We're just local guys that probably live next door to them. We're just trying to do the right thing. Okay, the job didn't go smooth. Yes, it didn't go smooth, but how can we help? And we might be different from other businesses where they go, "I've got the money, see you later," and just shut down. We're just trying to do the right thing. "Oh yeah, sorry, didn't know that was going to happen." We're not going out there to get one-star reviews, you know what I mean?

[56:25] Temporary fixes and giving options

Kane: Do you think trades have a bad rap in general, or a bad reputation?

Rhys: Maybe, I think. But the other thing as well is, if we go to a job, and one job didn't go right for us, and she's like, "Oh yeah, you guys, all you tradies are the same, fixing stuff." And if we're fixing something, there might be another burst pipe further down. What are we expected to do, replace the whole lot? No, we've done a temporary fix. When we do a temporary fix, we go off statistics. 90% of the time, 95% of the time, that would be fine. Okay, that other 5%, there's a burst further along. Now we might look at giving you a quote, just to cover us. But a lot of the time, we don't have a crystal ball.

Kane: Yeah. Because then that's where you have issues. If you recommend that at the beginning, "Hey, I can repair this section or the whole section," it's, "Oh, you're trying to rip me off."

Rhys: Do the whole house. Like, well...

Kane: Yeah. You can't win. That's where sometimes options... sometimes options are good, sometimes they're not. We're still trying to work out whether we're trying to give three options, good, better, best, or not. We're getting mixed advice, mixed opinions, because you're the professional at the end of the day. If you go there and say, "Hey, I can do a patch repair here, option A, or I can do this two metre section, or I can do the 10 metre section from where it comes out of your slab to over there," the customer's like, "Well, I don't know. What do you suggest?" Obviously, that's where you can recommend the whole thing, but then it looks like you're just trying to get the highest value.

Rhys: Yeah, 100%.

Kane: It's a tricky one.

Rhys: And it's like having, this is your essential. You have to get this done. This is it. And this is what we recommend: we do a bit bigger, if you want premium, or if you want a guarantee from me, we replace every part and we can guarantee that work. If we're doing a hot water unit, there's people like, "Oh yeah, but such and such can do it for this price." Yeah, that's just taking the old one out and putting the new one in. We can definitely do it for that. Okay. But we recommend this, because if you call us back and there's a leak on this fitting, we're going to guarantee it. Once we do that price for that job, if there's a call back, we generally know it has to be our work, like a little drip that we're leaving.

Kane: An old valve, for example.

Rhys: Yeah, an old valve. We're leaving the job, there's no leaks. Okay, and then two days later, "Oh, you guys left a leak." Well, it wasn't there when we left. We try and stay there as long as we can. So that's where the recommended option would be that, and the final option would be upgrading the unit to a better model which has more warranty, and then it's just a matter of getting it serviced at that five-year mark.

Kane: And bringing things up to standard. I know that's a common one with plumbing.

Rhys: Yeah, that's a tricky one. It's like gas leaks. We went to a job where it was, "Oh, I just need this connected." Okay, you've got a gas leak. "No, my bills aren't high." Yeah, but you've got a leak, I can't leave. We went out on a limb, tried, found there was a leak, luckily, and it was a leak that had been there for years. Next minute, the hot water system doesn't work, because it's that old, and it's like, "Oh, you guys stuffed it up." You get blown up at.

Kane: And only gas fitters and plumbers will know that, and maybe people it's happened to before.

Rhys: So, yeah, that's like that.

Kane: It gets tricky when you do that, though, because they think you might be trying to...

Rhys: Yeah, I know. And that's where you've just got to trust your local. I know some people might say you can't even trust a local plumber sometimes, but we're just trying to do the right thing.

Kane: Yeah. It's fun and games.

Rhys: Yeah.

[59:32] Turning the tables on Kane

Kane: Should we turn the tables?

Rhys: Yep.

Kane: Let's do it.

Rhys: I think we're going to talk about history and...

Kane: Yeah.

Rhys: I was going to say, you've always been someone, when you started... I always say to you, because you've got so many employees, I think they maybe underrate you, knowing how good... I always thought you were a very good installer. You were at a company, weren't you, where you only had one guy?

Kane: Yeah, my apprenticeship. One man band.

Rhys: One man band. And then you went to a company where... how old were you when you moved?

Kane: Probably would have been maybe 19.

Rhys: 19. Yeah. And then I remember from there, they were moving one of the guys, and you were going, "I'm going to go start my own thing now." How old were you when you first thought you were going to start?

Kane: I think I did my apprenticeship, which was about four years, then I went to the other company. I was there for two years. I was going to leave to start my own thing. They offered me a job to become the manager, and I stayed for about another two years. Then I started on my own.

Rhys: But I remember you were still like 20 and you were a manager already, and I remember you were organising guys that were 30, 40 years old, and you were literally managing from there.

Kane: Oh yeah, that was always a hard one, managing people that were older than you.

Rhys: Yeah, because that's a big thing. I don't think I've ever had that. Maybe I've been on a site and I've spoken to other contractors and stuff like that, but you've always had to manage from an early age. And I always feel like, when you used to do a side job, most people would just wing it. You would actually write down on your notepad an actual list, which is crazy. Instead of just grabbing the money, you would be writing, "Okay, I used this GPO," and this is how long. You used to have a little notepad of all your stuff, and you could go back. So you were already managing yourself from an early age, knowing exactly what you had. And then when you went to that other company, you were pretty much running a big company. It's not like you came from a company that had that. You went from one man to that, and they went, okay, straight away, you're going to become the manager. Because you were good at installs, but you were so thorough. You did everything by the book. Everything was in order. And then you just started running it, and then you started dabbling into plumbing straight away, even though you were still doing electrical as well. And then you left there and started your own thing.

Kane: Yeah, I think I've always been pretty organised, maybe a bit OCD, but I do like having things prepared and organised. And obviously, like you said earlier, routine for me is everything.

Rhys: Yeah.

Kane: If something throws my routine out for the day, it ruins me. And that's the thing, trying to implement that with other guys, as best as you can, because not everyone's the same.

[1:02:41] Systems and checklists at Smartfix

Kane: So at Smartfix, we do have a lot of systems in place, but it's hard to get everyone to do every single piece along the way. So we try as best we can, and obviously we've got other managers in place now. So the tradie, the guy that quotes the job, he'll go to site, he'll have his checklist. Then that goes into the office. They'll have their checklist, and make sure he's done his checklist. Then he gets booked for the installer. He goes to site, he's got his work order, another checklist. Once he finishes the job, the next person has their checklist and makes sure he's done his checklist. So it's just trying to make sure everything's done.

Kane: And for me, customer experience and customer service have always been super important, from the start. And I feel like if we miss things along the way, the customer is going to be the one that suffers. They might miss the electrical safety certificate, or miss getting sent their invoice or the warranty documentation. So we're in a pretty good place now, because we've been doing it for so long. But again, having staff for long periods of time is good, because it's hard to bring new guys in and train them up, because they forget, or it just takes time.

Rhys: Yeah. I always feel like that's one of your strong points. Most tradies, I would say, you would think they're really good at the work, they're just going to work hard, but they never do the paperwork, and there's no paper trail. Whereas with you, everything was in order. You built the foundation. It's not just hiring guys, like, "Okay, I'm going to hire someone else that's going to make more money," but it's going to help me out. If you don't have the foundation from the very start, like you were saying... Having another guy for you now, if you've got those systems, it's just another guy. You just teach. And then you'll find out from there if you need to train him up.

Kane: Yeah, exactly. So we're actually looking for two electricians at the moment. We've obviously got templates for Seek. We do use Seek now. We do put a message out: "Hey, we're looking for two electricians. If anyone's got any referrals, obviously let us know," because we need them quite fast. We're just going to put a job on Seek anyway. We've got templates in place from previous job ads, so we put that on there instantly. As soon as people apply, we have our process in place. Cool, let's do the screening process. Let's call them, ask those basic questions. Let's do the interview, and they'll put them in an interview with someone else. Josh will do the interview. Then if we offer it and they accept it, we've got a whole onboarding process. So we try and do everything, but again, it just takes time. I think you've got to tell someone something seven times before they remember it, or something. That's the statistic.

Rhys: And they're not going to read it. The amount of times I've written the stuff in a description, and then they ring, and I'm like, "Have you read it?" "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah." And I'm like, "Okay, cool, sweet, no worries." Which is fine. But people just sometimes want to have a yarn. I think with our trade, we're not really with a lot of different people. We're not always on a job site with someone. You go with the apprentice, or it's an enjoyment when you see one of the other guys, but you're kind of a lone wolf really, the whole time. Some people prefer that. Again, I always like variety, so I like being by myself, then maybe being with one of the guys on another day, and then being with a builder. So yeah, training him up.

Kane: Yeah, I did always like working by myself, but obviously there's a lot of jobs where it's so much easier with a second person, for the manual labour.

Rhys: Yeah. Well, your old apprentice, he's doing his own thing, isn't he? Your first apprentice?

Kane: Ben.

Rhys: Yeah. Oh yeah, your brother. But then you had Max as well, so he does his own thing.

Kane: Oh, yeah. Yeah. He's got his own.

Rhys: Yeah. He's growing pretty quick as well.

Kane: Yeah.

Rhys: So, them both. And then you came from here.

[1:06:30] Why Kane started Hypotential

Kane: Yeah. So I just want to touch on Hypotential a little bit, because a lot of the things we're talking about are systems from the start, and that's why I wanted to start Hypotential. Again, we never had or dealt with business coaches for our whole time. It's only recently where I've been trying to speak to other businesses that have...

Rhys: Well, I think you've been naturally doing it from the start, because you've always been the first person to go, "All right, I'm going to go finance this car." We don't have older brothers. I don't think we know many people that are older than us. You've got your younger brother. We're the oldest in our families. And our parents have not really been in trades. So we've had no one. So you've naturally been the person that we've spoken to, and then other mates have gone, "Oh, you've done that." You've always been like, "Yeah, I'll just try it out." And I used to say to you, "I'll just wait for Kane to do it first, and then I'll see how it goes, and if it works out for Kane, then I might do it."

Rhys: So you've always done that at the start. But the one thing that I always think about is when you're going, "Yeah, I'm doing this thing, I'll do this business coaching." I'm like, "Yeah, that's good." Trying to get people into your mindset. You're very thorough, and I think that's one of the hardest things, because you're very good at it. If you give them that... "Listen, I've done all the hard work. I've done it. This is what you have to do. Follow these steps. That's all you've got to do. And then any questions, I've been there, I've done it."

Kane: I've been there, done it. That's exactly the process we're going to go through. And it's hard, because again, there's a lot of things that I think are unteachable lessons. I keep hearing that recently. Obviously a lot of things that we spoke about back in the day, and now we look back on something you said and go, "Yeah, I definitely shouldn't have done that." But there's definitely things where there's no way anyone could have told me that I wouldn't have tried it.

Rhys: Yeah. And at the same time, you've sometimes got to make mistakes. I wouldn't know the mistake, but that's how I've got here. It's like, okay, I'm going to train someone differently, I'm going to do this, I'm going to say that. I just wouldn't know. But everyone's going to have a different experience.

Kane: They do. And I'm learning a heap from people that are just starting out.

Rhys: Yeah, that's why I always say to you, when you're like, "What? You're not doing that?" I'm like, "Dude, no one's like you. You were so structured in how you did stuff, and everything was in order." Most people wouldn't have that. And then you're probably listening to everyone's side, like, "Dude, you need to be doing this," and then someone else is like, "Mate, aren't you doing that?" And I always say to you, not everyone's going to be like you and have that routine. But you've obviously been there, done it, so you can make it a lot easier.

Kane: I think I've got to make it flexible, because obviously everyone is different. So if there's one thing someone really doesn't want to do, cool, maybe there's another way. You don't have to do it to that extent. Let's just do at least half of that, and then we'll come back to it later, because then you go through the rest of the process and go, "Actually, yeah, I know what you mean now. I need to go and do that thing."

Rhys: Yeah, it's going to be fun.

[1:09:30] Moving on fast when things go wrong

Rhys: A big thing as well that you've always been like is, if something doesn't work out, okay, cool. You never dwelled on it. Most people would be like, "Oh, that tradie didn't work out at the start. No, that's it, I'm done." You would be like, "Yeah, cool," moving on straight away, pushing to the next thing. Never dwelling on that customer, never dwelling on something else. Something didn't work out, cool. That car didn't work out, sweet, quickly change over. That's one thing I don't know if people starting out have. You need to be like, "Bro, I've done that."

Kane: Yeah, you learn from this. I've had my car written off.

Rhys: You've had a few vehicles have accidents and stuff like that. So it's like, cool. It's not like you're going, "Oh, that's it, getting rid of every car." Okay, cool, just get on with it, quickly get it done, move on to the next thing.

Kane: Yeah. Some people talk to me about the vehicle damage, because we have so many. It obviously happens. It's just natural. They're like, "I don't know how you don't punish the guys more." I'm like, you can't. It's just statistically going to happen. So we've got insurance. It's just a cost that you have to factor into your pricing at the end of the day.

Rhys: Exactly. Yeah.

Kane: And we know roughly how many incidents we have.

Rhys: You've got one coming up in about two weeks. [laughter]

Kane: The one scheduled for about two, three weeks' time. There'll be a little prank.

Rhys: Take that sign down, the "days since accident," back to zero.

Kane: Yeah.

Rhys: Yeah. Lodge another insurance claim. So they're the things you've just got to move on from. And that's one thing I always think with yourself. You just get on with it, eh?

Kane: Yeah. You have to.

Rhys: You have to. Got my shake now.

[1:11:03] Hiring slowly and hiring for attitude

Kane: Yeah, you've stolen my questions. Is there anything else we've missed? Anything on hiring? I wanted to talk a bit about the hiring stuff, but I suppose we've gone through that. That's something that we've learned naturally, and it's probably a good point to bring up. As you know, we've always hired very, very fast, and I think that's been one of our biggest mistakes, or biggest learning curves. Again, now we're looking for two electricians. We're not going to rush and take on someone that we think might be good enough. So now our process is, we're going to do five to 10 interviews. Even if the second person is amazing, we're going to go through 10 to make sure, and then potentially a second interview.

Rhys: And I think one thing as well that we probably haven't touched on, and I've seen it somewhere else: you can train someone up, but can you train someone's attitude up? No. You know what I mean? And that's one thing. We've got everyone getting along with each other now. You have one bad egg and it kind of ruins a lot. If you've got a good attitude, and you're willing to do that, and you're willing to take advice, I don't mind training someone up. Someone might get someone in and they're like, "Oh, they're so good," but then it's, "Oh, their attitude." I'd rather train someone up. You've got the potential to get there. You've got the right attitude. Can you see that I'm trying to work with you? I'm not just being a pain to you. Work with me.

Rhys: And most of the guys would know. They've come from other places, and they've said, "Yeah, no, I enjoy it." I can be honest, they rip into me, and I'm supposed to be their boss, but I never say, "Yeah, I'm the boss." I'm like, "You guys are the boss," or the guy upstairs. Like I said, upstairs is the boss. I'm just here to work around. This is where all the money's going. That's where it's going.

Kane: Yeah, we always hire for attitude. Like we mentioned earlier, if someone comes to us and they've got loads of experience in residential, but they haven't done aircon, for example, because that's obviously very common...

Rhys: Yeah.

Kane: We pay a couple of grand to put our guys through the course.

Rhys: Yeah.

Kane: And then we'll put them with a tradie that's good at doing aircon for two or three weeks, and that's how we train them up. So that's significant value we're putting into their time. Yes, it's two grand for that, but pairing them with a tradie for two weeks probably costs us another 10 grand, because they're not bringing in value doing electrical jobs. We're investing time into them. So we want to make sure that, again, they've got the right attitude, and they're going to stay with us, at least to try and help pay off their investment.

Rhys: And that's where it goes back to the pay rise. You get someone in and you've got to train them up, and then, okay, you're going to go on a bit of a pay rise. Can you do this? Can you do this? Yep, yep. Cool, cool. And the one thing that I said to the guys is, yeah, you can master your stuff as a tradesman. Okay. Now, I had one guy, it was like, "Okay, can you go to this job? There's one of the tradies there that's not really done it, and one of the apprentices. Can you go to that job now? You run that one. I don't want you in the hole while they're watching you." I want you to do similar to what we have to do, manage. Okay, you're really good at that, you're really good at that. And then he's next to me like, "Oh, he's not done this, and I've got to go back to the job now." I'm like, "Well, dude, that's what I said to you. You need to manage. That's the next step. Do all your skills and trades. Now the next step is, can you teach the other guys and help me out?"

Kane: Teaching them and showing them your skills.

Rhys: And the first year I've got, when he started, I was like, "You need to pick out all the attributes you want from each tradie and then make that yourself." Not the bad ones. I might be good at something, and then he might go with other guys, "Oh, this guy does it better than Rhys. I'm going to take that one off him." And you learn from there. But hopefully the attitude from all the guys is really the same, and he just picks up that attitude, which is good, and a good work ethic, and then builds on the skills from there.

Kane: Yeah, you learn different tips and tricks from tradies, even just doing little things, actually doing the physical job. "Oh, he actually uses that tool," or, "He's got this certain tool that I'm actually going to buy now. It makes it a bit easier."

Rhys: Yeah, 100%. A bit neater. And that's one thing we always try to do. "Oh, bro, is that tool going to make it easier?" "Yeah, that tool is going to make my life easier." "Well, let's go get it." If that's going to make your life easier, I'm all for that. If the job's going to take half an hour less, or we're not going to have as many callbacks if we do it. We've got a reseating tool. I found one where you reseat and you make it flush, and there's an internal reseater. I never got told about that. I just saw it online. I was like, cool, let's get it. Gave it to the guys, and they're like, "Bro, that's the best thing. That's so good." Cool. I bought it for each of the guys. I think I bought a bunch maybe a year ago, and they were like 60, 80 bucks each, but I knew a callback's 150. We're going to be doing taps all the time, so it was kind of a no-brainer. But realistically, it's tools like that. As a tradie, I know it maybe sucks, but you have to get your own tools. But the apprentices now...

[1:15:50] Tool rebates and the cost of apprentices

Kane: The first year?

Rhys: Yeah. He's six months into his first year, and he gets 10 grand.

Kane: What, a government rebate? Really?

Rhys: We had to sit down with the apprentice, and they're like, "Yeah, they get 10 grand now."

Kane: Tools specifically?

Rhys: Yeah.

Kane: Yeah. Okay.

Rhys: That changes all the time.

Kane: Yeah, it changes all the time.

Rhys: So the other one, that's a third, fourth year, he doesn't get that. I think his was about five. So it's doubled.

Kane: Back when we did our apprenticeship, I think it was called Tools For Your Trade or something, and you could get a certain amount over six months. You got this and you got that. And then it changed to, you could get a loan.

Rhys: Yeah, the loan. Then you don't pay interest for a certain amount of time, and then you start paying interest or something.

Kane: Yeah. When COVID was happening and we had apprentices, you could have that rebate. I think it was like 50% of their wage.

Rhys: Was that JobKeeper?

Kane: Well, no, there was another one. It might have been JobKeeper, or it might have been another one. But I remember when I first got all of my apprentices, just after COVID, it was like 50% of their wages for the first year, and then they got rid of it.

Rhys: I don't know if they need to do something, because at the moment it's getting really hard. What is the benefit of taking on an apprentice?

Kane: It's a hard one. We have been talking about that a lot recently, and it's tricky. They definitely need to have some sort of rebate. For us, it's the time at TAFE. They have so much time at TAFE, and if they don't pass TAFE, we pay for it. We pay to have them resit it. We pay for their time to go back and resit it. So it's a hard one, hey.

Rhys: Yeah.

Kane: But there's not enough trades out there.

Rhys: Yeah. What are you supposed to do?

Kane: Yeah. I don't want to say don't hire apprentices, but they need to do something. I don't know what it is.

Rhys: Yeah. Help out.

Kane: Cool. Well, this has been a great conversation. Do you want to refer back to your social media again?

Rhys: Yeah. Oceania Plumbing and Gas.

Kane: What, Instagram? Facebook?

Rhys: Yeah, Facebook, Instagram and Google. So, yeah, reach out.

Kane: Thanks for coming on the show.

Rhys: Cheers, mate.

Kane: Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Unlocking Business.