What Two Years in Business as a Chippy Taught Me About Growing a Trade Company | Mitch Suleau

[00:00] Cold open

Kane: Yeah, we couldn't fix it. Like, yeah, you have to just buy a new vac anyway.

Kane: It is such a big thing. Big responsibility.

Mitch: Oh, it's huge. But that was the big hurdle that I had to get through mentally.

Kane: Where's the money?

[00:10] Intro and meet Mitch

Kane: Hey, I'm Kane Tyler Smith, the founder and CEO of Smartfix and Hypotential. This is Unlocking Business, where we talk about how real businesses are built, run and scaled in the real world. Our guest today is Mitch from MBS Building. How you going?

Mitch: Good, mate. Thanks for having me.

Kane: That's all right. What is your business and when did you start?

Mitch: My business is mainly outdoor living. So we specialise in decking, patios, anything like that really. We have a contracting side to the business as well, so it's pretty much split into two. We started two years ago, coming up now.

Kane: So pretty fresh.

Mitch: Pretty fresh. But yeah, it's crazy. It's nuts. I feel like you learn more about yourself than anything else having a business.

Kane: Yeah, especially in the early days, when a lot of it is winging it.

Mitch: Oh, you've got no idea what's going on.

Kane: So, you're a carpenter by trade?

[01:01] From Tasmania to Perth

Mitch: Yeah, chippy by trade. I've been doing it for 10 years. So when I moved to Perth, we started the business. Didn't want to work for someone, so went from there.

Kane: Yeah. Where did you move from?

Mitch: Tasmania.

Kane: And you worked for a bigger company over there?

Mitch: Yeah. I did my apprenticeship with a company that was probably a commercial company. It was probably 50 people. And then I left them and went resi building for about a year, and then I moved to Perth.

Kane: Yeah. Okay. Was that new build houses?

Mitch: Yeah. That was just like anything, 'cause Tassie builds start to finish. So slab, and then frame up, and then you get the roof on, do the trusses, then the roofer will come and do that, and obviously you've got plumbers and stuff, but it's very much start to finish. So coming from Tassie to Perth, I feel like it's very segmented over here. You've got concrete, that, that. But I had experience in most of it, so I found a little bit of a gap when I first started to be able to just go, "Hey, I can help with concrete. I can help you with framing. I can help with XYZ." So yeah, that's how she kind of all started.

[02:03] How Tassie builds differ from Perth

Kane: And the houses there, they're not double brick, are they, in Tassie?

Mitch: No, they're all timber frame. You'll get double brick. For example, my first house, that was double brick, but that was built in the 50s. But now it's all timber frame. You won't see steel frame. You won't see pitched roofs like over here, like stick roofs. It'll all be trusses and brick veneer. So frame on the inside and then brick veneer on the outside.

Kane: As more of a feature.

Mitch: Yeah, that's pretty much how it is. You would rarely see double brick unless you go to a high-end home and it specifies that for whatever reason, like block work or something.

Kane: So what do the bricklayers do over there, or there isn't any?

Mitch: Oh, there is, but over here they have, like, the monopoly. You wouldn't see as many bricklayers back home with a building licence, for example. It would be the carpenter, straight up. So here I feel like bricklayers will have the building licence 'cause everything's double brick.

Kane: Well, I remember through COVID it was always the cost to lay one brick, it was always referred to with the bricklayers. It was like a dollar per brick, then it was $2, and it fluctuated, and that was the thing you spoke about. So yeah, they probably do have it.

Mitch: Oh, I see now brickies are making like four to six bucks a brick. I could be wrong. Someone's going to watch this and go, "12 bucks." But yeah.

Kane: Good money.

Mitch: The shortage of trades in general.

Kane: Yeah, that's right. Probably quite a hard, labour-intensive job.

Mitch: They can keep that one.

Kane: Yeah. Keep that one. So when you say you've done start to finish, so you guys actually done the slab as well?

Mitch: Yeah. So we would form it up and then do all the mesh and everything. We'd get it poured. I don't know if it was large, we'd just get concrete in, as we'd be hands-on. So I've had heaps of experience in that, just kind of the way it went. I'm from the north west coast of Tassie. So there was only like four to 5,000 people. So you're very limited to, there's not...

Kane: You just have to do it that way.

Mitch: But the quality of builders over there is unreal. They can do anything. They're like Jesus.

Kane: If you've got a good builder, you work with them, you're kind of off to the races really. If you applied yourself, of course.

Mitch: Yeah. If you're good at your job.

Kane: 100%. If you cared about it.

Mitch: Exactly. Otherwise you're working nowhere, 'cause there's only 5,000 people.

Kane: Oh, mate.

[04:07] Small-town reputation and caring about every job

Mitch: Yeah. Exactly. And people know. That's the other thing that I took from starting the business over here, is that back home, if you did something, everybody would know. So if you worked for a bad builder, everybody would know that guy was no good. But over here it's obviously so large, I feel like people hide. They can hide, which I can't confirm or deny. But I just brought that mentality over here, to be like, every job you have to care about, and you have to care about the client, care about the job. And that's kind of what started the momentum for me to be able to scale from that point.

Kane: Yeah. And you're doing your builder's ticket?

Mitch: Yeah. Doing my diploma.

Kane: What's that process like?

Mitch: So it's 16 months of just studying a diploma. So whatever you think that is, is what that is. It's rough.

Kane: Is that during the day? Because you're working.

Mitch: Yeah. So that's four days every month. So it's like Thursday through to Sunday, and it's eight hours a day, and we just do that at Master Builders.

Kane: Yeah. Our office is in the city.

Mitch: So yeah, it's 16 months of that. And you've obviously got assignments and everything to do. But I just knew that as the business grows, having your licence is massive. So yeah, that was the main thing.

[05:10] Studying for a builder's licence

Kane: So when you get that, then what's your plans?

Mitch: Don't really know yet. I think it was just that bottleneck that I know I'm going to come to. I like building. So being able to build houses or whatever that is, you need that licence. So I just don't want to be limited.

Kane: Yeah, I think it's cool. I considered it for a while. I was trying to get my builder's ticket. It is definitely harder as a sparky, because you obviously need that construction experience, and obviously me as a sparky, I didn't get any of that. It looked like there were loopholes, but there aren't.

Mitch: Oh, there's not. In our class we've got sparkies and tilers, but it's all just management based really. They just need to know that you can manage something, 'cause a lot of these building businesses are contractor based. So they'll be the building business and they'll contract everyone to build everything else. So it might be worth a look, but I don't know. I don't have mine yet. I can't tell you how easy it is.

Kane: I suppose it depends if you're going to use it. I only really wanted it for that extra thing, just to have that little bit of a point of difference.

Mitch: Oh, yeah. It's huge. There's so many jobs that I get now where you need it to get it through council or something, and you just can't do it. Which again, it is what it is. It's not like it's buckling the business or anything, but there's jobs that we can do, but we need that licence to be able to do them. And for me, I just want to be as transparent as possible with these clients. So if we can't do it right now, we can't.

Kane: Yes. There's a question I've got that you may or may not answer. It's sort of controversial, but not. So people say any job over $20,000, you need a builder's ticket here, which I don't know. I can't find the answer black and white. And I think it's ridiculous, because some painting jobs could cost 20 grand.

Mitch: Oh yeah.

Kane: Or some facelift renovations will be over 20 grand, like some air con units. So I don't understand. Do you learn that in there? Do you know what they mean? Is it structural over 20k? Or is it just price, like overall price is 20k?

Mitch: Now that law has been around, I think, since like the early 90s or maybe even the late 80s. It's been around so long. I could be wrong, but it's been around for so long that if you adjust for inflation, that could be 50 grand. But I think that's just to protect the homeowner, or whoever's employing you to do the work.

Kane: 'Cause I guess it's...

Mitch: I don't know, it's such a grey area. Even when we're doing our diploma, we're asking these questions, and it's kind of on a case-by-case basis, like you say. I know some guy that got a renovation through the council at sub 20k. It was like an extension, and it's like, well, that's literally extending the house.

Kane: Extending the house.

Mitch: It was only a small extension, but it's like, okay. And then some people can't get a patio through that's 30 grand, but you can do an extension.

Kane: Yeah, I don't know too much about it. I don't know exactly what the rule is, but it sounds like it should be if it's structural. Even a patio, I don't know much about it, but I assume it's structural.

Mitch: Yeah.

Kane: It's a huge safety factor if they do a bad job.

Mitch: And that's the thing I was saying before. In a small town, everyone would know that person. What's Perth metro got, three million people, something like that? They can just hide and they'll still probably get work. It's crazy to me.

Kane: It's definitely still small, but yeah, comparatively.

[08:18] Why Mitch started the business

Kane: So what was the main reason you started your business when you came over here?

Mitch: So we moved over a bit over two years ago. And I think it was just a matter of, I'm in a new place, what do I have to lose? I went and worked for a ceiling fixing crew. So they were doing framing and stuff. It wasn't really what I was doing, but it was work. I knew someone who was doing it. And then I kind of had a run-in with a guy, and it ended up with me just saying, "I can't deal with this guy." So I was like, I've got nothing to lose. I'm in a new place. We don't know how long we're going to be here for.

Mitch: And then it just started from there. That day we had an argument, I went home, got my ABN. I knew that I cared about people and I knew that I cared about my job and being good at something, and I just didn't see that in this one specific situation, and it just frustrated me. So I went back and had a tantrum and got an ABN, and went from there. The next day I registered a business name, pretty much. And I just had to come up with something, so it's just a name and then Building Company. But it's been unreal. It's been the best thing I've ever done. The growth that you have as a person from having a business is unreal. It's not just business you get better at. It's everything else you get better at as well.

[10:23] Retail roots and saying yes to gutter cleans

Kane: Yeah. It sounds like you're pretty all over the customer service side of things.

Mitch: Yeah, I try to be. I've always cared about people, but I started off in retail. I worked at a surf store back home called Red Herring Surf, and then Cotton On at the same time. So I've always been around people, caring about your job and trying to be good at it, and then having experience like that and understanding that people were spending their money. That was the main thing. So every job I was getting, I was like, I don't care about the dollar. As long as I can cover materials and XYZ, I will just do the best I can. And then yeah, it flowed on from there. I was doing gutter cleans just making no money. There were times where I was not working for like two weeks. I'd get a gutter clean for like 150 bucks or 180 bucks, and then I wouldn't have work for a couple of days, just 'cause I was trying to find it. It was good though, because I was by myself. So I didn't even have to stress too much.

Kane: Say yes to everything.

Mitch: Yeah. Make it work. Oh yeah, I was painting doors and doing gutter cleans.

Kane: We used to do the same actually. That just reminded me, when we first started, we were using hipages.

Mitch: Yeah.

Kane: Just to get any leads. I remember there was one lead that came in that was like a broken vacuum cable. "Let's do it." It's so funny. We called him up, "Yeah, no worries, we'll come around." And yeah, we couldn't fix it. You have to just buy a new vac anyway. Funny. We didn't charge the customer, but we tried.

Mitch: But you've got to experience those things, I think.

Kane: Yes. And now we've learned. Obviously nowadays you're just going to throw it out.

Mitch: Oh yeah, you're not going to...

Kane: Or go back to Dyson or the manufacturer. Obviously now we don't even attend those leads if we got them.

Mitch: I don't know what you think, but you have to be willing to do those types of things. It's such a good indication of how the business is going to be. If I had a conversation with someone who just started their business, and they were saying they were doing gutter cleans or fixing vacuum leads or toasters, whatever, I'd go, you're going to be doing okay. 'Cause if you're willing to do that, that means you're willing to put in the groundwork to be able to survive or make it work.

Kane: Yeah. Make it work. What were the biggest challenges when you first started?

[12:28] The first hire hurdle

Mitch: Oh, I think I've lucked out. But I think it's just the challenges of having a business, that stigma on yourself, that pressure on yourself. So I was getting work and I was like, "Oh yeah, I know I can do this," but there's the pressure on yourself to be able to do it. Other than that, when I was working by myself, it was pretty easy. It was pretty cruisy. You don't have too much pressure. If you think it's four hours and it takes eight, it doesn't matter.

Mitch: But the first big hurdle, which was very much mental, as I'm sure we'll get into, is hiring somebody. That is the biggest thing since starting something, because it happened pretty quick for me. I started the business and then about six months later I had my first employee. So it happened pretty quick, but that was the big hurdle that I had to get through mentally.

Kane: And what was the main reason you hired someone? Is it because you had enough work, or you just wanted to grow the business?

Mitch: I had enough work, but I was finding myself using people for two or three days every so often. And I was like, "Oh god, I need somebody." So I was like, I'll just take the risk. And at the time I knew I didn't have to make much money to survive, 'cause I was living in a share house, etc. My partner and I were just chilling. But yeah, I just made the decision. I got this contract, this pretty big contract, to do some good work, and I was like, I need to get somebody. And then that was just a mission. Your first employee is massive.

Kane: It is such a big thing. Big responsibility.

Mitch: Oh, it's huge.

Kane: Did you get a tradie or an apprentice?

Mitch: I got a tradie.

Kane: Yeah. Okay.

Mitch: I think a tradesman... So, everyone's told me to get an apprentice, but I just can't. My advice would be get a tradesman.

Kane: It's funny, we spoke about it in the last two podcasts. 'Cause I got an apprentice first. A friend came on previously, and I think he said he had a UK person who was basically an apprentice. But that puts so much more pressure on you, because again, it's probably a different industry, but as an electrician or a plumber, they have to work with the tradie. You can't send them to a job without one, for licensing reasons. So yeah, hiring a tradie at the start, I definitely agree.

Mitch: Oh, it's the way to go, 'cause of the amount of things that you have to worry about if they don't know something.

[14:34] Team of four and when to hire admin

Mitch: Having a tradesman, it's not even the money. It's the mental load that you can just give them. It's huge for you to be able to operate at a good level.

Kane: How big is your team at the moment?

Mitch: There's four including myself, and then we have a contractor that comes and helps whenever we need. We're looking to put on another one, but yeah, it's going pretty good right now.

Kane: So no admin staff yet?

Mitch: No admin staff at the moment. We're looking at office and admin stuff at the minute, kind of. We're just playing it by ear.

Kane: It's a big step as well.

Mitch: Massive. I have no idea. We've spoken about it off the pod, but yeah, it's huge, I think.

Kane: Yeah, that's where, again, like your first employee, the next thing is actually getting a commercial premises, whether it's a shared space or not. There's obviously options.

Mitch: Yeah, it's that thing that, again, we've spoken about 50 times, but your time's better spent elsewhere. So if I'm sending an email that I don't need to send, not in a bad way, I can hand that to somebody, and your time's better spent quoting or site visits or quality management, whatever. Then the admin is worth every cent that you pay for it. So what I just explained is how I'm looking at my business right now. What am I actually doing? And I'm super lucky. I've got some unbelievable workers, they're all very good. I've honestly lucked out. Being able to trust them means I can focus on other things, bring other work in and quality manage, etc., which I don't have to do too much of, thankfully.

Kane: Yeah, that's the thing. I think a lot of it comes down to what you actually want to do as well. And I don't think people know that until they progress through their business. I was chatting with someone yesterday and he's like, "I don't know if I want to work in the office full-time." Or a friend of mine, Rhys, he's got over eight vans, and I don't think he wants to work in the office full-time. So it depends on what people want to do. Do you want to do that? Do you want to go part-time on the road? Do you want to quote? Do you need an admin person, or are you happy doing it? There's so many different variables that come into consideration.

Mitch: I'll just speak for myself, but I don't think you know what you want until you're heading in that direction. So I didn't know how important it was for me to be off the tools and finding work, or whatever it was, you name it, until I got to the point where I was like, I can't actually be on site on the tools and do the same thing.

[16:41] Getting off the tools

Mitch: Because if I'm going to site, I'm dirty. I'm tired. I'm exhausted. It's 4:00. I've just had a massive day on the tools, and I go meet a client and try to put on a happy face. I'm just exhausted. I'm so tired. So I feel like you only figure out where you want to go when you're almost at the crossroads of the decision.

[17:44] CRMs and moving to ServiceM8

Kane: Yeah, fully agree. So a topic we want to talk through today, which is perfect, is what structure means before scaling. I know we've spoken about this previously, but in your opinion, how many systems do you think you need in place before you take on a commercial lease or look for an admin person? Do you have a CRM in place?

Mitch: Yeah. So I run Facebook ads, just Meta, so Instagram and Facebook, but yeah, I have a CRM. I'm at the start of a business really, so all my systems are starting to come in from now. So having a CRM and nurturing those leads is obviously extremely important, as you understand. But I can't remember the question, just about the CRM.

Kane: Yeah. So for example, like you just said, you're starting to put systems in now, but you've already got four people including you, which is quite a lot. So when you go to site, what system do you use? ServiceM8?

Mitch: ServiceM8. I use one called LeadConnector, but we're hooking up to ServiceM8. We're getting someone to hook it up for us.

Kane: Yeah. The tech stack's a whole other thing for us as tradies.

Mitch: God, I'm supposed to know this. I'll hand everything I don't know to somebody else. The time you spend on it is wasted.

Kane: And finding those people that do it as well, in so many different systems. But yeah, we use ServiceM8. A phone call comes in to the office, they answer the phone, they put the job in ServiceM8, then we send the guy out to quote the job, and then the installers have the photos, they've got the description. So do you operate in a similar way? Do you have to go and quote every job?

Mitch: Yeah. So the good part about what we do is the jobs are quite large. So it's not like we're going to a job and it's a day. It might be if you're doing a bit of maintenance work, but we don't do that often. The jobs are 7 to 14 to 21 days. We've had month-long jobs before. So it's pretty easy to get in there, do what you've got to do, spend more time there, and then fill everything out. Before I was using ServiceM8, I was just documenting it all on an email, a spreadsheet, or whatever I was doing in a PDF, and sending it to all the boys that were going to be on site. So yeah, always trying to document things. I just have to do that. I need to do that. So now, knowing that ServiceM8 exists, obviously it's a shining light.

Kane: I was going to say, what was the difference you realised going from Excel spreadsheets to a CRM?

Mitch: Oh my god. It's knowing how to use the things as well, and being forced to do so. It's that thing of, you don't know what you want until you're doing it. So being forced to learn, because you're buying your time back by using a CRM. I've double-called people at the start of my business, to be like, "Hey, I'll come and do a site visit," and they're like, "You've already spoken to me." Having the CRM will avoid all of that. Yeah. But that's just the thing of being on the tools and being all over the place.

Kane: Yeah. You just can't do it. When I started, it was even before Excel. I didn't use Excel. It was a physical book, carbon copy, rip out the copy. Going from that to ServiceM8 was the best thing ever.

Mitch: I do love writing things down. I don't know what you're like, but if I've got a list of things, I write it down. Even today, I've got the podcast and I've got to film content after this, and I just write it down and it's in my brain. I don't know what the difference is between that and your notes app, but writing it down is the go.

Kane: I do the same. So for example, sometimes I go out on the road and do quotes just to keep in the game. I do enjoy doing it. So yesterday I went out, and everything's in the CRM, but I still had to physically write it down, even for the customer's benefit. So I would have option one, option two, option three.

Mitch: Yeah.

Kane: Obviously rough notes of what we're doing and different prices, so I could see it and they could sort of see it. And then I take a photo, put it in the job, and then use voice to text in ServiceM8.

Mitch: Game changer. Yeah. Okay. I've got to get onto that. I've got to level up.

Kane: So good. 'Cause you can just go into notes, press the mic button. "Note for tradie: hey, this is a Colorbond roof. You're going to have to take up the sheet in the corner."

Mitch: Does it translate pretty well?

Kane: Yeah.

Mitch: Really?

Kane: Yeah. It translates it, and then once it thinks, it goes back and amends it quickly, and then you just check it. Put your spaces in where you want.

Mitch: Yeah, they're unreal. Although I think you told me they don't have it on Samsung. So all my guys have iPhones, but one of them, my leading hand, doesn't. He's only got a Samsung. So, "Brother, we've got to get you a phone. We've got to buy you a new phone." So we've got to get that. That's the only downside. There must be some sort of deal going on there.

Kane: Yeah. Weird.

Mitch: But it's worth every cent though. ServiceM8's unbelievable. And I don't even use it to the full extent that you guys would.

Kane: We're still learning. You mentioned just before about using them properly. We're like eight, nine years in now and we're still working it out or adjusting things. In the last couple of years we've probably completely changed the way we use it.

[21:58] Xero, bookkeepers and paying super

Kane: 'Cause at the start you're like, "Oh, we probably don't need to do that. We don't need to do that." You cut corners, and you look back and you're like, I wish I'd learned that properly at the start, because now we don't have all the data, or there's things that you missed. Like job categories, for us, have always been super important. Every job that comes in, where'd you get our number from? We try and figure out exactly where they got us from. Is it Google? Was it Facebook? Was it a flyer in the mailbox? Are they a repeat customer? So now we do have a lot of data, which is everything, and that's another reason why CRMs are so good. Do you have accounting software as well?

Mitch: Yeah, we run Xero. Xero integrates with it.

Kane: Yeah. Best thing ever.

Mitch: Oh, dude. So good. And paying a bookkeeper, getting a good bookkeeper and a good accountant. Not using the accountant all the time. I have a bookkeeper that mainly runs it, and they work as they need to. You're paying a premium, but you just don't have to worry about it. And if they double check it, there's two sets of eyes going over it, etc. And I think that's the best thing.

Kane: We do exactly the same. So we do most of our reconciling ourselves, and then we get them to check it, like, "You guys check this."

Mitch: Yeah. From a compliance point of view, "This is what you guys need to check."

Kane: Exactly.

Mitch: Super, all that stuff.

Kane: Exactly. You've got to pay super weekly from this new financial year.

Mitch: Which, I pat myself on the back, I've been pretty good with the finance side of things. I've been doing that since I've had all my three employees, just 'cause it was easier. I don't know why.

Kane: You pay weekly?

Mitch: I pay fortnightly, so I'm just doing it fortnightly. But I was doing that at the start because my bookkeeper said, "You're going to have to do it, so get used to it now," which I found easier for cash flow and figuring out what's what.

Kane: Anyway, I fully agree. So when it first came out, I was like, this is going to absolutely ruin my cash flow, because, again, we've learned a lot in the last couple of years. We used to have, with a big company, a couple hundred grand sitting in the super account, and I would use that to buy a new van or something, and then it comes to super time.

Mitch: Where's the money?

Kane: Yeah. So I actually got recommended fairly recently a book called Profit First for Tradies, I think it's called.

Mitch: Okay.

Kane: And one of the things from the book is so simple, but it's so important. I do it daily. Every time our pay comes in for the day, I'll put the percentage away for GST. I'll put the percentage away for profit, if there is any. So you've got the GST, you've got the profit, then you've got the operating expenses. So now, as soon as it comes in, I've got an account that has that money in there.

Mitch: Yeah, I've got...

Kane: So with the whole cash flow issue, I do think it's going to be a nightmare for a lot of people. But I do think it's clean.

Mitch: Because the money's not yours anyway. Just get rid of it.

Kane: Pay the money and get rid of it. Yeah. Like PAYG. I don't know what the rules are there, but ours, we have to pay it weekly. I think the bigger you grow, the bigger your PAYG is, you have to pay it more frequently.

Mitch: Yeah, you're probably right.

Kane: So for us now, with the new financial year coming in, we just pay super then, and PAYG, and it's just GST that we have to put away for.

Mitch: Which I wonder if they'll acknowledge, because I'm sure there's businesses out there that pay, let's say...

[25:05] The moment things clicked

Kane: Yeah. I think the rule is when you post your pay run.

Mitch: Yeah. No matter.

Kane: I'm pretty sure. I don't think it's weekly. That's a good point actually. I think it's when you do your pay run, you have to do it.

Mitch: I mean, if you have to change to weekly, you've got to do what you've got to do.

Kane: I don't think it would be, 'cause I think some people pay fortnightly or monthly.

Mitch: Oh, bro. I don't even know how these mining guys are getting paid monthly. Don't know how they do that.

Kane: Do they?

Mitch: I think so. Yeah. Some mates just get paid monthly. I'm like, "Brother."

Kane: You'd have to be able to plan in advance.

Mitch: Oh yeah. I think it's a bit different, because it's not their business. They're working for whoever the big dog mining companies are.

Kane: But monthly is pretty strange. You get paid 12 times a year.

Mitch: Yeah, that's weird.

Kane: Can you share a specific moment when things started to click?

Mitch: Oh, I think you're always going to have setbacks, but I think the employee was massive for me, 'cause the same time I put the employee on was the same week I started advertising. So it was huge for me, the outgoings. I was making no money, and I was like, I'm just going to have to pay for these Facebook ads, and pay the guy to do it, and put the employee on.

Mitch: But that was the moment. That was the scariest part. But that was the thing where, the first week of having him, he made me realise that having a good tradesman, a good person, you can kind of do anything. But that's when it started to be like, right, I get to learn now, because it's not going to be breezy the whole way through. If you do have a problem, that just gives you an opportunity to deal with it, because you can't go from zero to 10 employees in the same day and know exactly what to do.

Mitch: So I think having the opportunity to be able to micro-dose these problems with this person, that's probably the thing that's changed me and the business. It's just having the ability to have good guys and problems that we can solve, because that makes me feel confident for the next one, or we can avoid it. So yeah, that sounds weird, but that's how it all clicked for me.

Kane: How did you find your first tradie?

Mitch: Good. Yeah, he was good. It actually worked out pretty well.

[27:10] Finding the first tradie on Seek

Mitch: He was travelling Australia and he was through here. So it worked out pretty well. He was with me for six months, which was nice for me, to be able to go, okay, it's not full time for the rest of my life. We know it's six months, or whatever he's going to be here for. And it just worked out that when he was on, it worked out well. We scaled and then we put another guy on. When he left, we already had two more there. So we had four and then dropped one.

Kane: And did you know of him before he started?

Mitch: No, I had a Seek ad.

Kane: Yeah. Okay. Seek, which is a whole scary thing. You've got like 100 people and you just don't know. References. What I'm getting at is, when he started, did you feel like you had to work with him on site for a certain amount of time before you could...

Mitch: Yeah. Well, that was the thing. That was the benefit of what we were doing, because I was on the tools until recently, where I've made a conscious effort to step back a little bit. I've always been on the tools. So it was just working one-on-one. So it was good to have someone with the same skill set as me, to be able to pretty much do what we need to do throughout the day without having to show someone how to use a drill or hammer drill or something.

[28:14] Documenting and over-engineering footings

Kane: Yeah. You get some people that don't know how to do anything.

Mitch: Yeah. Which you're going to get even with tradesmen. As long as they pick it up fast enough where they don't create too many issues.

Kane: Hey, because I suppose with jobs that you do at a bigger scale, if they make a mistake at the early part, decking or something...

Mitch: Exactly.

Kane: And you don't know about it until...

Mitch: Yeah, it starts sinking. We have to document everything, and everything's clear. Before I get to the job, I'm like, this is how big our footings are, this is the spacings for this, this, this. And you just know they've got the skill to do whatever you need. Or even if you've got to figure something out, you figure it out together. I just try to document all the massive important parts, because the structure is the main thing of anything. The fit out and the finishes are important, obviously, but it doesn't mean anything if your house falls down.

Kane: I was going to say, yeah, from a safety standpoint, the foundations, the structure. I saw one of your videos recently of your decking, where you guys do the concrete...

Mitch: Footings. Yeah. Like the post and stirrups. That was the benefit of coming from Tassie, that's the thing you're doing. So it was real easy for me to come through, which I'm sure there's so many tradies that do the same thing in Perth. But yeah, we just set the footings down, and I'll always over-engineer our footings, and then it just comes down to the Dynabolts you use, the posts you use, the fixings you use. Just over-engineer all of it and then you can't really lose. And from a price point of view, it doesn't really change much. But for me, I just want to do it right the first time. Do it once and you're going to feel good about it, your boys are going to feel good about it, the client's going to feel good about it. You can't lose by just going that extra mile, and you sleep at night.

Kane: Yeah. I feel like cutting corners is harder anyway.

Mitch: Well, yeah, 'cause it's in the back of your mind. If you skip a step, you're like...

Kane: "What happens?"

Mitch: Yeah. If you cut a corner, it meets you at the end anyway. So you're like, "Well, I may as well get it right now."

Kane: I think customers know that as well. If you're explaining the job properly at the start, at your pricing point, if you're explaining that you do go that extra step and you're honest, they can see that they're going to pay the extra to get it done properly.

Mitch: For me, you can have spent x amount of dollars on Facebook ads or Meta, but referrals are massive. You have the job almost as soon as someone refers you. But that's where it ties into social media for us now, that a referral is much the same as people seeing it on social media. 'Cause if they see you or see me posting it, they'll see the boys, and then when they rock up on site, automatically they know, "Well, I've seen these guys five different times on socials. I trust that instantly." Or they see a job that they want done at their house that's similar. You've almost got it, 'cause they trust you, because they know exactly what they're going to get, especially if you're explaining exactly how you're going to do it. And nine times out of 10, you don't change it. You change the design and the layout, of course, but the structure of things normally stays the same. And you should be proactive about always levelling up.

[31:21] The Spearwood deck video

Kane: So that brings you to a good point. So you had a bit of a win on your social media recently.

Mitch: Yeah. Oh yeah, my social media is massive. I've got 400 followers. Yeah, I just started. I thought I need to post exactly how we go about it. You see so many people with the, what's the thing?

Kane: POV, like point of view.

Mitch: Yeah, POV. But if you have a business, you're a content creator now. So I was kind of diving into that, and I filmed a couple of parts of a job that we did, which was unreal. It was in Spearwood, and we had a fireplace and a massive deck. It was unreal. But yeah, I did a part one and it popped off a little bit. Popped off for me, anyway. It was like 30k views, and we got like two or 300 followers from it. And that was our first post, a taste of what that realm was like, which, mind you, I was shooting myself. I was terrified of it. But that was only a couple of months ago, and I've already had clients come and say they love that stuff. They want to see what it is. They want to see what we're doing and how we go about it. So I've already built the trust for future clients just by that video.

Mitch: And obviously you get more followers, not that that matters, but you kind of get what I'm saying.

Kane: Yeah. The more eyes that see it obviously helps. So before that, you only had what?

Mitch: I had like 150 followers. And then we gained like 250 or 300 just from that video. So yeah, it's tough at the top.

Kane: Yeah. I think, even for us, I've just started being in front of camera, which is still extremely difficult and awkward. But like I said before, if you have your own business, I don't think you can really go very far if you're not doing something on social media.

Mitch: Yeah. You've got to be seen. And people will see if you care about what you do. I don't think it's about thinking you know everything. This is huge, I'm massively passionate about this. Don't think you know everything, but you've got to be willing to learn more. I'm not going to sit there and talk about someone's business. I mean, obviously there's rough stuff out there and you're like, "God, that's a bit dodgy." But let's say you really care about your client. For example me, I'm always like, "All right, how can we make this better? What can we do that's better?"

Mitch: You care, and you know that you can do a good job, so how can you always level that up? And that's the main thing we're thinking of. Social media will hold you to account. It will make sure that you can see other people that are doing it a different way to you, that's a better idea, that's more efficient, or XYZ. I just can't really see a loss in it, unless you've got trolls. That sucks.

Kane: I bet people tell you how to do your job in the comment section.

Mitch: Oh yeah. There was one where I explained in the video, this is why we put so many bearers in. And this guy was like, "Why do you have so many bearers?" And I was like, "I'm not even going to comment on that." I just explained that. I don't get that. I don't think I've ever commented on someone's video. If I didn't know you and I was commenting on your video, that's such a weird concept to me, that someone posts something and you go and do that. I don't understand.

Kane: I don't know. It's funny. It is a common thing, I suppose. Where can people find your social media?

[34:30] Winning jobs from social media

Mitch: It's just MBS Building Company. MBS Building Company on everything. And then my personal, Mitch Suleau. We collab on most things. So if we have our guys working, we try to collab with them so everyone can see who we're working with.

Kane: Yeah. Cool. Hopefully that continues to work. I think you mentioned you did win a big job because they saw your video.

Mitch: Yeah. And last time we spoke it was one, but it's two now. We've got two where they've mentioned they've seen our videos and they've seen our posts, and they know we're trying to build trust that way. I'm transparent on the phone when I'm speaking to these guys. I'm like, "Look at our social media. We're trying to show you what you're going to get before we rock up, and who's going to be there." And yeah, it's been massive. Just that one video, and me sweating on it for 24 hours straight before posting that video, has been huge for the business. And the team loves being in it. They love it.

Kane: So what value were those two jobs?

Mitch: Roughly, I'd say somewhere around 20 to 30k each. Obviously materials is quite a lot, obviously business expenses. Especially when people are spending that much money, they're investing in you. You've got to care about that a little bit. It's not about you getting paid at the end of the day. Obviously you're in business to do what you've got to do, but I think you just need to understand that these people have probably saved for x amount of years for that, or whatever. And you've got to care about them from the start. Be honest about what you can do with the budget that they've got, etc., and work from there. That's been how I try to go about it. Whether that's right or wrong, I don't know.

Kane: I think that's right. We've only just really started pushing heavy on social media for Smartfix, and the staff love it. They love being on camera. We do get good feedback from customers as well, because it's just showing that we're real people. We did a video the other day where we've got two tradies carrying this huge oven up the stairs. It's stuff that's sort of behind the scenes.

Mitch: Yeah.

Kane: We're just human.

Mitch: Exactly.

Kane: Trying to do the right thing.

Mitch: I had a job that we did and your sparkies were there. Now I'm seeing them on social media and I'm like, "Yeah, boys." It's a recognition.

[36:38] Instant rapport and the bad rap tradies get

Mitch: Exactly. If I'm feeling that way, imagine what clients are feeling like when they don't actually have any idea about the trade.

Kane: Well, like you said, if someone sees one of our videos and they see a face, "Oh, that's Bailey," and then he rocks up to do the job, "Oh, I've seen you." It's almost instant rapport, in a way.

Mitch: That's right. Exactly. And you feel calm, you feel good, 'cause a lot of the time it is a lot of money for whatever it is you've got to do.

Kane: It's people's homes, it's their biggest investment. And I think tradies have quite a bad stigma as well. So it's like...

Mitch: "Is he going to mess my house up?"

Kane: Oh yeah. "Is he going to clean up? Is he going to scratch my walls on his way out?"

Mitch: Which is all fair enough. I'd be like that. So I completely understand why trades have a bad rap, but there's so many good people. I've tried to follow people that I can relate to on socials, and they're all unreal. So many elite tradesmen in Perth that do the same thing as us, over East, etc. I'm sure you guys have people that you look at like, "Oh, that's wicked." You want them to do well, just like you. It's not like you have to just win and no one else wins.

Kane: I think that's a very good point, because I think that support helps you and them. So again, we've only just started in social media. I've not really used it personally previously, but if I speak to someone now and I know them, I like them, I like what they're doing, I'll specifically go and follow all of their profiles when I can, and then I'll obviously start seeing their feed, and I'll like and share some of their stuff, because I know it's going to help what they're doing.

Mitch: That's right. And that's why they're posting it. They want that engagement. So if you can just give them that little piece, it could be the thing that makes them go.

Kane: Yeah. That's sort of the reason we're doing the podcast as well. When we share this, obviously you'll probably share clips.

Mitch: Oh, I'll sit there and think about it for four weeks straight before I clip it.

[38:43] Where the business is heading

Kane: Where do you see your business growing?

Mitch: We've had this conversation before. I don't really know. But I like what we're doing. I like the scaling. I like helping people. And I like just doing what we're doing. I think the game of it all, I love it. And seeing people be genuinely stoked, and the Google reviews, and people being super happy with that investment. I'm just going to continue to do that. So hopefully we're looking at expanding the team, and if we can continue to do that and deliver the quality that we want to, then that's the route that we're going to go. Very short term, we're not trying to think too far, but that's where we want to go, because I think if you don't have quality, your business kind of sucks. It's not a house of cards. It's the marathon, not the sprint of making a quick buck. It really does fill your cup up to know that you got a good Google review and that you've changed their whole space. They can live there, 'cause they're going to have their Christmases and stuff. It's massive to people. So that's what I try to think about.

Kane: Yeah, I think it's important, just taking your time to find the right people, because I always say it's all about the people.

Mitch: Yeah.

Kane: Staff, the clients, customer service, those reviews, that's important. That'd be cool for you as well, if you do those walk-through videos, if you can manage to tack on a review from the customer at the end. Amazing.

Mitch: Yeah. A testimonial.

Kane: I'd use that on the website. You've got a website as well? What's your website?

Mitch: MBS Building Company dot com, I assume. I should know that. I should know.

Kane: Google. You Google MBS Building.

Mitch: MBS Building. Yeah. And leave me a review or something.

Kane: You've got five-star reviews, hey.

Mitch: I do. I think I've got like 20 something, which is good.

Kane: Takes time.

Mitch: Exactly. It does take time, and you've got to care. And the thing is, like we said before, if you cut a corner, it'll just come and bite you in the end.

Kane: It's not worth it.

Mitch: It is not worth it at all.

[40:50] Is the customer always right?

Kane: Is the customer always right?

Mitch: I love this question. Oh man. Oh, how do I respond? They are, if they've got all the information. If they've got all the information and you give them everything, and they still have their thing, and they still want to do something even though you've given them every single piece of information, and it doesn't affect the engineering, it's fine and all that, I think you let them be right. But a lot of the time, even us, we're making decisions on things we don't really know about. So I'd like to say, more from a visual aesthetic standpoint. 'Cause some people just want what they want. For example, we do jobs and people are like, "I want to keep this old thing here because it's got sentimental value." And okay, as long as it doesn't affect us engineering it, or...

Kane: The safety.

Mitch: Yeah, the safety aspect of it, or it's not rotten and you're going to fall through it, then we can keep it there. I'd like to say yes, 'cause I feel like that's what you should say. I don't know. I think you've got to have all the information.

Kane: I love the question, 'cause...

Mitch: I was panicking. I was like, what do I say?

Kane: Definitely not always right. No way. That's my opinion.

Mitch: Yeah. What do you feel? 'Cause my work's bigger. Do you reckon there's any differences in a bigger project compared to a smaller project? 'Cause I'm assuming you've done bigger ones.

Kane: I think straight away the answer would be no. For example, again, I only went out to do two quotes yesterday, but because money is such a hot topic right now, cost of living, the fuel, the war, everything is quite tight this time of year. April is always hard, school holidays, public holidays. She had this one job yesterday. It was $440.

Mitch: Yeah.

Kane: But it was so important to her from a safety point of view. She wanted to make sure it was done right. She'd had bad experiences previously. So I don't think so. Obviously the bigger jobs are probably more risky from a business point of view, because of such a high value. If the customer turns sour and they owe you a lot of money, it's more stress for you. Whereas a $440 job, we're not going to die if she doesn't pay for whatever reason, you know what I mean? But I think it definitely comes down to their perspective. So I think the question, is the customer always right? Definitely no, there's some occasions where they're wrong. But I think you want to make sure they feel like they're right, or they feel like they're heard, and that you've done your best job to provide the best customer experience, for all the reasons we've spoken about already.

Mitch: Repeat customers are the cheapest client. How do I word that?

Kane: Yeah, I know. It's the most cost-effective client, because they pay you again and again and again.

Mitch: Yeah, exactly.

Kane: So for our business, we're heavy on Google Ads. We don't really have many big jobs, so we need a higher quantity of jobs. So we need to make sure every customer is happy, because we want them to use us multiple times. Because that job yesterday, it's 440 bucks, but she already mentioned to me while I was there that she wants a new air con. She needs an outdoor security light put in. So I know she's probably going to use us again, if all my team follow the right process. If she's happy with it, we do the job properly, we leave her talking about us. We leave her a magnet to put on the fridge. She had other business magnets on the fridge.

Mitch: Yeah.

Kane: Put us next to it, or over it.

Mitch: Over it is what you want.

[43:56] Charging what you're worth

Kane: So yeah, when you get a chance: "Give us a call. Come out. Do a free quote."

Mitch: Yeah. And especially if they've had a bad experience and you're the saviour. You're going to be the man. Your business is going to be the team for everything. And that's got to feel good, to be able to be like, "Oh, we had a bad experience, and you made it great." 'Cause then that changes everything for them.

Kane: Yeah. I think that's a good point. And that also comes down to pricing, because obviously we're not the cheapest out there. But again, when money's tight, people still pay for our service, because they know we've got the reputation, they know we're a bigger company. And I think that's important, obviously, as you grow. You have to charge what you know you're worth, what you have to charge.

Mitch: Yeah. Exactly. That was something that I had no idea about at the start, what do I charge, and I was making nothing. But you learn as you go. That's the only way to figure it out. I could tell someone I charge this, and that might work for them, but you've kind of got to know why you're charging that amount of money. Because then it all ties together. That is your product, that is what you're selling, this is why it's this cost. Because if you walk in there and say it's a million dollars and you have no idea why, then you don't have a connection to everything in that million dollars.

Kane: If you don't believe what you're saying, the customer is going to know straight away.

Mitch: Yeah. "Just 'cause, man." "Really? Why?"

Kane: Yeah. Exactly.

Mitch: "Oh, my mate told me."

Kane: Yeah. Oh, I think that's just what I wrote down. The customers know that straight away. So we have no issue with our pricing. We win about 60% of all our jobs.

Mitch: That's pretty good. That's really good.

Kane: Yeah, it's so good. We do get a lot of repeat clients. And I think that's what we were getting to before, repeat clients and referrals. Like you said before, having the social media presence there is so impactful. It's good you're starting it early. We didn't. Again, I've never really been a personal fan of using social media, so I've always been scared.

Mitch: Oh yeah. It's terrifying.

Kane: Yeah, exactly.

[46:01] Kane's biggest lesson: hiring too fast

Mitch: Yeah, you've got to do it. Should we turn the tables?

Kane: Yeah, let's do it.

Mitch: I actually thought about this question before, but I think I already asked. My question to you is, what is the thing that would have changed the way Smartfix operates? Smartfix is eight years, whatever it is. Let's say, what is it that you might have learned in year five that would have changed everything for Smartfix if you'd known it in year one?

Kane: I think probably hiring too fast, and maybe hiring the wrong people. We obviously grew very, very fast, so we were at a stage where we would just take on anyone that had their ticket.

Mitch: Yeah.

Kane: And I look back now, and we talked about that before. That was probably one of the biggest mistakes that I ever made.

Mitch: Okay.

Kane: So we got to a point where we had just under 140 staff. But over that time we hired some bad people, and kept them for probably too long as well.

Mitch: Yeah. And obviously you said it before, people are everything, hiring the right people.

Kane: To make sure you keep that quality, make sure you have that customer service there. Because if you have one bad tradie that does three or four jobs a day, which obviously sometimes we do, and they are really leaving a bad impression on every customer, I've paid a lot of money to get those customers through the door. So for me, that really annoys me. There's not too many positives that come out of that.

Mitch: No. That's so true. I never actually thought about that, that you could be doing two, three, four, five jobs a day per person. Oh, that's crazy. That's terrifying. So I guess you've answered it, but the quality of person probably matters. For example, our jobs are larger scale, so it's much slower, so we're going to catch something. With my good tradesmen, whatever happens, we catch it pretty soon. But yours are in and out, in and out, in and out. So the quality of tradesman is actually extremely important.

Kane: It is. Yeah. 'Cause sometimes you work on things for a while. Again, this comes down to having the right people. If we do a small job, like the one we spoke about before, and they're leaving her house and their tool belt scratches the wall on the way out...

[48:06] Owning mistakes and calling bad reviews

Kane: If the tradie knows and doesn't say anything, I hate that. You've got to tell us, because we know mistakes happen. Again, we're human. We've got guys that go out there and fix it. Don't just ignore it and pretend you don't know about it, because sometimes a customer won't bring it up on site. They might wait till they've gone. Or they might be like, "I'm just going to do a bad review. Terrible service, scratched the wall, hasn't said anything."

Kane: So there's a couple of scenarios. The tradie calls, brings it up, tells the office, "Hey, I've accidentally scratched a wall with my tool belt." The office knows, and we'll get someone to get in contact as soon as possible to repair it. Or if they did genuinely not know about it, the customer calls us or messages us, "Hey, he actually scratched the wall." No problem, send us a photo, we'll get it fixed ASAP. We want to have the opportunity to fix it, so the customer doesn't just never use us again or leave a bad review.

Mitch: And their review will be better anyway. If you scratch it and you fix it straight away, their review is going to go from really good to unbelievable.

Kane: Yeah. It happens a lot. So sometimes when that does happen, if the tradie just misses it or whatever and the customer leaves a bad review, we call all the bad reviews, if we know who they are. "Hey, what was your experience? Why'd you leave the review?" Go through the process. "Oh, he scratched my wall. He didn't say anything. He just ignored it." Oh, maybe he actually didn't know about it. That's okay. Whether he did or he didn't, let's move on. We'll get out there and fix it. Go through that process. And sometimes they will either remove the review, or they'll change it to a five star and say, "Wow, I didn't realise they'd actually come back and fix it that fast."

Mitch: Yeah. And that's huge. That's literally turning a negative into a positive. And people just want to be treated with respect. So if you respect them, even if it is six months down the track, whatever it is, they're going to love that.

Kane: Yeah. And that comes down to callbacks as well. Sometimes there might be a manufacturer's warranty issue with an air con. So someone calls us 6 or 12 months later, "Hey, the air con you installed has now stopped working." We will go out there the next day for no charge, check it, test it, make sure the gas hasn't leaked, make sure we go through the manufacturer's warranty process if need be. So having that level of customer experience, customers froth that.

Mitch: Yeah. Okay. I've got another one.

[50:13] Advice: pick a niche, nail customer service

Mitch: If you were to give any advice to somebody starting, I mean, you do this all the time, but to any tradesman, any trade, male or female, what would you say is the thing that they need to do? Because I hear, "Pick your niche. Pick your niche." But you don't really know what your niche is unless you really, really do and that's the only thing you've ever done.

Kane: Or is it a person choosing a trade, or...?

Mitch: No. What's your advice to someone starting a business? What's the first thing you'd say, "This is the thing you need to do"? One of them would be pick your niche.

Kane: Okay.

Mitch: Straight away. That would be one of them. I've only said that because you'd just said it, but if it was just one thing... Pick your niche, do that by yourself, hire. I guess it comes down to what you want, but all of us that have employees know the value of having a good team is huge. Would you say employing, having that on the horizon sooner rather than later?

Kane: Employing other staff? Not necessarily, because not everyone wants that. Some people want to just work by themselves. But yeah, the one piece of advice I would say is just have the highest level of customer service that you possibly can.

Mitch: Yeah.

Kane: Because everything is off of that. So for us, for Smartfix, my top two things have always been staff retention and customer service. Staff retention, again, we've learned a lot over the eight years, but we've got some people that have been here over five years, eight years now actually. My brother Finn's been here over eight years. Crazy.

Mitch: That's definitely uncommon in trades, staying somewhere for that long. Anywhere for eight years is a long time.

Kane: It's a long time. Yeah. There's a few at five years now, a few at three. And I don't think there's any reason why people would leave, unless they want to start their own thing, which happens. And I'm all for that. If people want to leave and start their own business, I try and help them as much as possible. We don't burn any bridges.

Mitch: Yeah. Exactly. Because it all comes around, and contacts are everything. Contacts are literally everything. For you guys... I'm only new to Perth really, two years, but I can speak to you or Ryan or whoever I really need. Contacts.

Kane: Exactly. You need contacts. Picking the niche is actually a good point, that you bring that up, because I've been saying recently, if I was to start again, I would stick to a niche and just stick to that one thing, like electrical only, for example.

Mitch: Yeah.

Kane: It's so hard adding on other trades and services. I don't have the experience in the trade. It's not just a copy and paste. It's a completely different business. You need different people, different managers.

Mitch: And being good at something creates efficiency, and when you're efficient, then as a business you can start making money, if that's obviously what you're in it for.

Kane: Yeah.

Mitch: Yeah. I think a niche, and being efficient, whatever it is. You see guys that clean ovens around Perth, or gutter cleans, as I've mentioned a fair few times. You can do anything. There's specific things like that and they obviously work. They're potentially not as scalable as other things, but yeah.

Kane: Yeah, the specific oven clean, like you said, it's one that I see a fair bit. They just do the one thing.

[53:22] Is a business a reflection of its owner?

Mitch: Do you think business is a reflection of the individual? So with Smartfix, there's a lot of things about Smartfix that are good and bad. As I was saying before about business, for me, I learn a lot about myself, what I'm good and what I'm bad at. So let's say I'm a bit blasé on documenting things in my actual life, and I'm not good at paying bills or whatever. That's going to come up in your business as well. Do you think it shows? Probably not so much now, but in the early stage, were you like, "I'm really like that. I didn't know that I was like that"?

Kane: Yeah, 100%. I'm OCD. I'm super OCD. Everything's got to be as neat as possible and everything done as perfect as possible. But there's obviously cons as well. So with the cons, I feel like now I have great staff, team members that are good at those other things that I know I'm not good at.

Mitch: Yeah.

Kane: Some things need to take time, go slow.

Mitch: Yeah.

Kane: You can't just get rid of that person because he's annoyed you. No, let's go through the process, have a conversation. Those things there. So having the right people in place, and I've learned that a lot over the last couple of years, that is everything.

Mitch: And that's just the pure scale of Smartfix.

Kane: Yeah. Well, even like you just said before, if you don't like doing admin...

Mitch: Yeah.

Kane: Of course, maybe you will need an admin person. You get that office. Maybe that is a next step for you, to get that admin person, because then you can give them all that stuff that you don't want to do, which they want to do. They're good at doing that. That gives you more time to do what you want to do. Is it going to site to do the quotes? Is it going to help the guys, check on the guys? Is it just working on the business, not in the business all the time?

Mitch: Looking to buy the van you spoke about.

Kane: Yeah, exactly. You've obviously got your new car coming soon.

Mitch: Yeah.

Kane: Drive that around. How good is that? Signage. Think about your signage. It just gives you time to think, and that's something I think is very important. It's hard to say. I know it's important, and I still struggle to do it now. I've been doing it recently. I just got used to sitting at my desk.

Mitch: Yeah.

Kane: For 8 to 10 hours. I'll just sit there. And now I'll drive to the cafe to get lunch just to get me out of here. Even though I'll probably go on my phone when I'm there, it gives me time to actually just think for a minute.

[55:27] Saunas and switching off

Mitch: About something else. Yeah. When I'm driving somewhere, I try to not have music. I'll listen to a podcast, but I just turn everything off, 'cause my brain's going all the time. If I turn it off, that's my little piece. Even if I've got like 20 minutes or 10 minutes, I feel fresh once I get out.

Kane: I tell you what has actually been amazing for me. We bought a sauna for home.

Mitch: Oh my god. I'm recently in the market for one.

Kane: Unreal. With kids, it's the thing.

Mitch: Yeah, it is.

Kane: So we put the kids to bed, and then I just sit in there for half an hour. You're in a box. No one can get to me.

Mitch: Yeah. I'd like to get the sneaky link on that, 'cause I'm in the market for one. That's the thing, your health is huge. Your physical and mental, it ties into one. So if you're in the gym, like you mentioned, you're in the gym pretty early, and you've got a sauna, that's going to reflect how you can operate throughout the day.

Kane: Yeah, it just is what it is. Can't you build your own sauna?

Mitch: Probably could. Actually, maybe I should do that. I'll document that. I actually know a few guys that did that back home.

Kane: The one we got has an amazing service they offer. You can actually rent it.

Mitch: Okay.

Kane: Then you can rent to buy. So for us it was great, 'cause it was, am I going to use it? So we found this one, I think it's called Nook Saunas.

Mitch: Yeah.

Kane: So we rented it, they delivered it, they built it in my garage. I used it every day for a couple of weeks. Then it started to taper off, then it was every second day, and then it was consistent. I was like, I actually like doing this. Cool, I'm going to buy it.

Mitch: Oh yeah. Was it three person, two person?

Kane: I think we got a two person. One person is too small.

Mitch: Yeah, it is.

Kane: But unreal. Sauna is so good. Do you do ice baths?

Mitch: Nah, way too scared. So we went to, I think it's called Ember Bath House, for a date day a while ago, and it was like magnesium pools and an ice bath, but I couldn't do it.

Kane: Really?

Mitch: I put my leg in up to my calf and it hurt. I can't do this. Maybe one day.

Kane: Really? Okay. That's so funny.

Mitch: Have you done it?

Kane: Yeah, I've done it. I'm not doing it every day, but I'll try to if they're in the same vicinity. But again, I'm probably not doing it as much as what everyone hypes it up to be. I've heard it hurts your calf, as you put it, when you put your leg in.

Mitch: I don't know what it was. I didn't like it.

Kane: So funny. I like the sauna though. Just sit there. I use that time. I watch podcasts.

Mitch: Yeah.

Kane: I put my phone on flight mode so it can't ring, 'cause your phone overheats in the sauna. So I've got a suction cup on the outside, on the glass, with a magnet car holder. Put it out there, airplane mode so it can't ring, and watch my podcasts.

Mitch: That's so good.

Kane: But then once you start sweating, that's super zen. You're just sitting in there and you feel good.

Mitch: It's hard to sit in it at like 65 degrees for half an hour straight.

Kane: Oh yeah. But how good do you feel once you get out?

Mitch: Yeah.

Kane: Good fun. Anything else you want to go through?

Mitch: We covered a lot, hey.

Kane: Yeah, cool. Thanks for coming on.

Mitch: No worries, brother. Thanks for having me.